The name of the game is developer advocacy and Rizel Scarlett came to play. Rizel is a Developer Advocate at GitHub and leader of the Employee Resource Group, Blacktocats. She is also the Director of Programs G{Code} House, a place-based initiative aimed at teaching women of color and non-binary people of color to code. In this episode, Cassidy, Zach, and Rizel discuss the evolution of open source, empowering developers, and how to bring more diversity and inclusion into the software community.
The name of the game is developer advocacy and Rizel Scarlett came to play. Rizel is a Developer Advocate at GitHub and leader of the Employee Resource Group, Blacktocats. She is also the Director of Programs G{Code} House, a place-based initiative aimed at teaching women of color and non-binary people of color to code.
In this episode, Cassidy, Zach, and Rizel discuss the evolution of open source, empowering developers, and how to bring more diversity and inclusion into the software community.
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Episode Timestamps:
(02:12): Rizel’s day-to-day
(05:53): What dev advocacy looks like for Rizel
(16:43): Rapid Fire Questions
(19:22): Random Segment Generator
(22:43): Rizel’s advice for software newbies
(28:13): Cassidy’s Sage Advice
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“I want us to take open source more seriously and make sure that it's diverse and inclusive and I think we're going in that right step. There's just all these different opportunities. I'm seeing more black maintainers and stuff like that. I'm just excited for open source and how it can continue to evolve.” – Rizel Scarlett
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Links:
Cassidy William...: Hello everybody. And welcome to The Dev Morning Show (At Night). My name is Cassidy Williams and I am your host and I am accompanied by my lovely co-host Zach. How are you doing Zach?
Zach Plata: I'm doing great. I'm Zach. I'm the co-host, not with the most, but I'm trying.
Cassidy William...: Co-host with the regular amount and we're accompanied by a lovely guest today, Rizel. Rizel works at GitHub. She's a developer advocate and employee resource group lead there. Rizel, thank you so much for being here today.
Rizel Scarlett: Thanks for having me. It's really exciting that I get to even talk to you.
Cassidy William...: Are you kidding me? I love all of your content. You're always writing the best blog posts and putting out really good Twitter spaces and stuff. It's really exciting to have you on the show.
Rizel Scarlett: Thanks.
Cassidy William...: So what are you working on right now, Rizel?
Rizel Scarlett: Right now, I'm working on a lot. So, well, to start, at GitHub, I've mostly been focused on early career developers. So introducing them to different new GitHub features and then open source as well. So I've been working on this segment, I guess, called Open Source Friday. So I either do a Twitter space with a maintainer or a Twitch stream, whatever I feel that day. And I also write a little blog recap on the GitHub blog called open source monthly about the open source projects that really stood out to me. And then I have other web dev projects in the works, I guess, but not ready to talk about them yet.
Cassidy William...: Nice. So you're not busy at all?
Zach Plata: Yeah, that sounds like a lot.
Rizel Scarlett: I like this though. It's fun.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. Yeah, no, it is. It's one of those things where if you have a lot of variety of work, you never get fully bored. And so yeah, you can kind of keep busy. Especially in a pandemic when you never know when you won't be able to do something else. So what does a typical day to day look for you?
Rizel Scarlett: Oh, that's a... I mean, you're a developer advocate, you know-
Cassidy William...: I know. There's no such thing as a typical day to day, but still.
Rizel Scarlett: Okay. I will say I kind of wake up a little bit late because everybody is on the West Coast and I'm on the East Coast. So I feel I could get that time a little bit. I wake up a little bit later and then I'll probably check my emails, check Slacks, just make sure everything's good. Check Twitter. That's important too. Got to see what's going on in the Twitter verse. But then after that, I will probably either, if it's a Monday, I'll probably reach out to a maintainer and be like, "Hey, do you want to have a Twitter space or a Twitch stream with me?" I'll probably write a blog post. There's probably automation within a GitHub repo that I could do or contribute to. So I like to do that because I don't get to code as much anymore. And I want to keep my coding skills fresh.
Cassidy William...: Yes.
Rizel Scarlett: And yeah. And then maybe there's a Black Decat meeting, which Black Decats is the GitHub ERG. And then recently joined the leadership team. So maybe there's a meeting for the leaders or the actual group itself. And then after that, that's the end of my day, I'll go to the gym and sleep.
Cassidy William...: Good for you for fitting the gym and all that. So what does it mean to lead an employee resource group? Because you mentioned that you might have a meeting on occasion here or there, but I know that these kinds of groups provide so much value to employees.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm still figuring that out too, because I just got this position maybe two weeks ago, but-
Cassidy William...: Oh nice.
Zach Plata: Congrats.
Rizel Scarlett: So far. Congrats. Thank you. Thanks y'all. But so far it's just been making sure that they have their voices heard and they feel like it's a safe space for them to talk and be supported.
Cassidy William...: Yeah, totally. And I think once again, feeling supported and heard, there was a quote that I heard the other day that I feel really encompasses it because when you have these resource groups, when you're working on anything that promotes diversity and inclusion and everything, it's not so much about just having a lot of people who look like a lot of different people, which it is. Don't get me wrong. It is. But it is about being supported and heard. It's about knowing that people understand what you're saying and can act on that and just not being pushed aside or just not being heard at all.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. Completely agree. I feel like you really described that well.
Cassidy William...: Thanks. Thanks.
Zach Plata: The Dev Morning Show (At Night) is a sponsored podcast, means someone has to pay the bills around here. We're sponsored by Launch Darkly and Launch Darkly is the first scalable feature management platform. That means dev teams can innovate and get better software to customers faster. How? By gradually releasing new software features and shipping code whenever they want, fast tracking their journeys to the cloud and building stronger relationships with business teams. Thanks for the money, Launch Darkly.
Cassidy William...: Anyway, let's move on to our first real segment. Oh gosh. This is why we shouldn't have ads and I would get into why capitalism... Anyway, could you talk a bit more about dev advocacy as a whole because all of us are dev advocates on this call right here, but it does kind of mean something different to everybody who's in the job because it's not standardized. So what does your job typically look like, Rizel?
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah, well to start with what it means to me, it's empowering developers to do their job best. At least that's the understanding I have. And then for me, my advocacy at GitHub, I know a lot of people do feedback and stuff like that. I haven't gotten a chance to really delve into that part of getting friction logs and stuff. But my advocacy has mostly been around creating content that is easy for people to consume and digest and be able to accomplish what they need to get done. So if GitHub comes out with a new way to do actions or Codespaces or they came out with the co-pilot, a thing that allows you to translate, I'm trying to do-
Cassidy William...: Which is magical by the way.
Rizel Scarlett: I know. It's so awesome. It's so awesome. Yeah. And I jumped on that opportunity to just be like, "Okay, here are use cases for it." Because people are thinking it's just a fun thing. I'm like, "It has practical use cases and then here's how to get the best out of it." So to me, that's what my job looks like. And then I get hooked. What I like the most is that it's easier to collaborate. I feel maybe at some developer advocate roles, you got to stay in your box. This is what you do, but I can hit up the education team or the diversity team or the brand team or whatever, and be like, "Hey, want to do this together?" And they'll be like, "Yeah, sure. Let's do it."
Zach Plata: That's awesome. Because I feel like, yeah, like you mentioned, this role can span so many different aspects and responsibilities and it's cool that you're not just focused on just making blog content or YouTube content or whatever that might be. You can hit up someone on the other team and be like, "Hey, let's go make an example project together, showcase this one thing." And that's one thing when I first joined developer advocacy relations, whatever, it was a really cool aspect of it. There's just so much to do.
Rizel Scarlett: There is. I love that. And it works for me because when I was working as a software engineer, feedback I would always get is like, you're always distracted. You need a focus. So I'm like, now...
Cassidy William...: And now that's a good thing.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah.
Zach Plata: Awesome. Well, okay. Another question. What terminal or editor do you use on your day to day?
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah, so I'm pretty boring now. When I was a software engineer, I was using Z shell and stuff like that. Now I'm just the basics. So I'm either using Visual Studio Code or Codespaces, but I use the Panda theme because I really the pink letters and then I used to use C shell, but I'm pretty sure my terminal right now has no customization. It's just regular decla. And let me see, what else. What else do I use? I think that's it. I'm pretty, pretty bare bones. I can't live without Codespaces now though for some reason, but I'm just using the basics.
Cassidy William...: So you mentioned that you were in software engineering before you were a dev advocate. What got you into the industry in the first place?
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah, so the way I got into this industry is kind of long. I'll try to keep it short, so okay.
Cassidy William...: You don't have to, we got plenty of time and editors.
Rizel Scarlett: Okay. So I started off as a psychology major in college just because I was like, I don't know. I'm 18. Maybe I want to learn about how people think, but then-
Cassidy William...: Shocking. A teenager isn't sure what they're going to do.
Rizel Scarlett: I was like, "I don't know." So I just picked something but then for me, finances were tight and people were telling me, "Oh you got to get a master's if you want to actually make money and get a job in this field." And I was like, "Oh, I barely have money for this semester." So I ended up not even being able to pay for the next semester and I had to drop out of college and I was like, "Okay, you know what? I'm going to rethink what I want to do in life because this doesn't seem a smart move." So I started Googling what jobs make the most money? And tech kept popping up and I was like, "Okay, I know how to use the computer. I could do that."
So I enrolled in community college for computer information systems. I started working as a IT person, really loved the aspect of helping people. But the role, there was two problems for me. One, I felt I kind of picked up everything pretty quickly. And I was like, "Okay, if I'm 20 and I already know how to do all this, I don't know if I could do this for the rest of my life. I'll get bored." And then two... dang, I forgot the second reason, but they're a whole bunch of reasons. Basically, I heard people talking about coding and stuff. I'm like, "This seems way cooler something to push me. Something more proactive." Yeah. That was my other reason. I felt it was just like, oh, you broke this? Here, let me help you. Whereas I'm like, there's something more proactive I could probably do that will make the user experience better than me just being like, oh, the button's actually right there. You can click it. Right? So.
Cassidy William...: Can you try turning it on and off again?
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. Very, very basic. So then I looked into software engineering. I was like, "Cool. I can help people way better this way and really influence them." And so I went to a coding boot camp called Resilient Coders. It was a nonprofit coding boot camp for black and brown people. Really good. Became a software engineer, but I didn't have a good experience as a software engineer because I was at different toxic companies. I was at startups that had 20 people or seven people. And I just felt I was not good as a software engineer. Looking back, I was pretty bombed, but I thought I wasn't good.
Cassidy William...: I love that you have that insight.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. In hindsight, I was killing it, but I was like, "Oh my God, I'm not good." And then also I just missed helping people. I missed the person aspect where I was talking to people and stuff like that. And then I didn't know what to do, because I was like, "Oh, this is a high paying job. I shouldn't leave it." But on the side I was helping to create this program called G code, which taught women of color and non-binary people of color to code. And I got to create slide decks for them and demos and stuff like that. And I was training the teachers and I was showing the students how to do stuff. And I'm like, "Dang, I wish I could do this as a job." Because the nonprofit didn't have as much money. So I'm like, "I don't know about doing that full time."
But I was like, "I wish I could do slide decks, create content, do talks and still code. That doesn't exist." But I realized on Twitter, people you, Brian Douglas, Angie.
Cassidy William...: It does. Yeah.
Rizel Scarlett: I was like, "Wait a minute. I can do this." So yeah. That's when I started really heavily looking into it, applying to different jobs and interviewing and I didn't really prep much. I know a lot of people do prep. I usually use the interviews to figure out where I fall short. So I did like-
Cassidy William...: I do the same thing actually.
Rizel Scarlett: Oh? You do? Okay. Perfect.
Cassidy William...: Yeah.
Rizel Scarlett: Because I don't have time for this six month prepping.
Cassidy William...: I know.
Rizel Scarlett: Just I'm okay with failing.
Zach Plata: I feel that.
Rizel Scarlett: Do you feel the same, Zach?
Zach Plata: I feel the exact same. Yeah.
Rizel Scarlett: Okay.
Cassidy William...: It's just so much to prep for. And it's a good thing to study and to keep up your chops and stuff, but also if you're interviewing for a job, you should be able to do the job. And this is also job interviews should also be relevant in general to what you're going to be doing. And so I agree with you. I think it's kind of good to figure out where your gaps are in the interview process.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah.I usually go in, I'm like, "I'm going to fail this, but just to it's just to see where I'm falling short." And then people will be like, "Yeah. So you probably should read the release notes and stuff that for this company." I'm like, "Okay, cool. Now I know what to do." And then GitHub popped up on my Twitter timeline and I was like, "I'm ready for this job." So I applied and then I got it.
Cassidy William...: That is awesome.
Zach Plata: Amazing.
Cassidy William...: I love that you bounced to so many different things and ended up here because you have the perfect breadth of experience to know exactly what you want at least at this point in time.
Rizel Scarlett: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, me too. I thought it was good that I got to see what everything was like. So now I know.
Zach Plata: And I also feel like in this role, I'm increasingly seeing a lot of people who didn't really mean to get into this space. They started off in one side of the world or in this whole other head space doing, I want to do whatever, another major or something like that. And then they end up realizing, oh, I like the customer facing aspects of it or the content creation part of things. And then they just happen upon this kind of role. And it's really cool to hear different people's stories, how they walk into this space.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. It is. Even people who have non-coding backgrounds, I'm always interested and I'm like, "Wow, how did you keep up with us?" And then also like, "How did you discover this?" I don't know. But I love hearing their stories too.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. It's so interesting. And one of the things that you said I love and the fact that you said looking back, I was killing it. Sometimes when you're not, or you think you're not doing well at a job, it's not because you're not a good coder or something. It's just because it doesn't align with your interests. And I think that is a very big thing that a lot of people struggle with because they're just like, "I've studied this. I should do this. I should be good at it, etcetera." And sometimes it's just not necessarily what you want to do.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I was like, "I don't want to code all day. I coding, but I want to mix it up."
Cassidy William...: All right. Let's move on to the next segment. It's going to be rapid fire. We're going to be asking you a series of questions back and forth and will answer them as fast as possible. So first of all, first question, we all have a domain name or 10. What is one that you're squatting on?
Rizel Scarlett: I'm not squatting on any. I always make the site first before I buy the domain.
Cassidy William...: That is genius. I don't understand.
Zach Plata: You have to have the product first. What?
Cassidy William...: Weird.
Rizel Scarlett: I can't trust myself.
Cassidy William...: That's honestly pretty smart, which saves so much money.
Zach Plata: All right. Next question. What is the most recent thing you overoptimized?
Rizel Scarlett: Ooh, easy. There's this invite automation thing that I made for GitHub when people add themselves to an org or star an org. I overoptimized that to the point that I'm pretty sure it's broken. Yeah.
Cassidy William...: I actually might want to use that because it's a very manual process and an automation for that would be amazing.
Rizel Scarlett: Ooh.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. Okay.
Rizel Scarlett: I'll overoptimize it a bit more. Go ahead.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. What is your golden rule for coding?
Rizel Scarlett: Ooh. My golden rule for coding is just code it all out first and then go back and refactor, kind of what I do for writing. Yeah.
Zach Plata: All right. What's your favorite it depends question?
Rizel Scarlett: Ooh, if you need a merge squash or rebates or merge commit, all those different ones. That's my it depends.
Cassidy William...: Ooh, that is a good one because so many people have opinions.
Zach Plata: It is.
Cassidy William...: What is the oldest piece of tech that you own?
Rizel Scarlett: Ooh, that's a good question. Probably an old Mac it's like 2008.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. Ooh, that is an old one.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. Not too old, but-
Cassidy William...: Yeah. You know.
Rizel Scarlett: Medium old.
Zach Plata: Medium old. Nice. All right. Have you ever written a piece of cringey code?
Rizel Scarlett: I write cringey code all the time, every day. I always go back. I'm like, who did this? It's me.
Cassidy William...: You could blame yourself.
Zach Plata: All right. What's your most used emoji?
Rizel Scarlett: The crying one with the bolt tears because it's either me laughing crying, or me really crying. And that's where I'm always at.
Cassidy William...: It's all just crying in the end.
Zach Plata: [inaudible 00:19:14].
Cassidy William...: Now, it is time for our random segment generator. We have a bunch of segments that we will randomly pick from. And then we will ask you questions based on those segments. Okay. And the first segment is dev oops. So could you tell us about a thing that you broke and the story behind that?
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah, so I broke a new feature that I made, I guess.
Cassidy William...: Oh no.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. Okay. So basically at one of the companies I worked at, I made a translation tool. It was a chat bot. You can say that. Yeah. So basically people have to respond in by saying yes, and then the conversation will keep flowing. And I added a translation tool for it so that Spanish speakers and other people who don't natively speak Spanish can join in and say si or whatever language they speak in. The thing I broke is I didn't realize that people write the word si without the little accent mark on top of it sometimes, I guess, that's casual talk for them if they're texting or just typing. So I made it a hard and fast rule that it had to have the little accent on it and nobody could opt in to doing the chat messages. And everyone was like, "Oh my God, what's going on? None of the Spanish speakers are able to opt in." And I was like, "I don't understand." And yeah. So that's what I broke.
Cassidy William...: Oh, that's such a very, very small set of pixels to mix up too.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah.
Cassidy William...: That can cause so much destruction.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah.
Zach Plata: That's a good one. Our next segment is what are you most proud of? So tell me about something that you shipped recently that you created or are really proud of.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. So this is not necessarily, well, I have two things. I'll make them fast. The first one is not a code thing. The first one is G Code. I'm really proud that I'm not the founder, but I did help to create the program from the bottom up. And I'm really proud that I was able to help four cohorts of 15 to 20 women of color literally go from not knowing anything about coding to now they can code. And some of them are landing jobs at Stitch Fix and stuff like that. So I'm really proud of that. And then my code thing I'm proud of is I made a vs code extension the other day that enables you to deploy a static webpage to GitHub Pages. And I thought that was fun because I haven't coded much. So yeah.
Zach Plata: Nice.
Cassidy William...: That's awesome. I mean that first thing it might not be code, but you're changing people's lives and that is something so, so amazing. Whether you're on the founding team or you just help out those, the smallest things could change so much for lives down the line and that's really amazing. And I just want to give you all the kudos for that.
Rizel Scarlett: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. All right. We have one last segment. What's it going to be? Launch lightly. It's kind of Launch Darkly, our sponsor, but it's light, so.
Zach Plata: Sneaky.
Cassidy William...: What is your best advice for someone starting off in the software engineering world or in the tech world in general?
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. My best advice is just continue believing in yourself and don't compare yourself to other people. Some people pick up things faster than other people and some people are taking that time to absorb that information. So just take your time with learning different things and don't worry about other people because I used to and that was not good for me.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. There this quote from Mark Twain: "Comparison is the death of joy." And I think it's a very, very real thing. And I love that you said that because people have not only different speeds, but also just different interests and different paths that they want to go on. And so it's good to kind of see the possibilities in front of you when you look at people who are further ahead in their careers, but don't compare yourself and be just like, I'm a failure because I'm not at this point.
Rizel Scarlett: Exactly. Put well said.
Zach Plata: And to add onto that, my partner Grady is at a tech conference right now for VIEW conf somewhere in Florida. And he was just mentioning before he left like, "Oh, I'm worried I'm not going to know enough about VIEW. I haven't worked with it long enough or anything," but he's been telling me over just these past few days like, "Oh my gosh, there's so many people coming from so many different walks of experience." And it was just really, he was suddenly saying how cool it was to interact with really experts, people who are experts in view, but also just people starting out, even coding and all this good stuff. And it's really cool to see that at conferences and stuff.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I really love that. And like you said, you never know, your a little bit of experience or your niche experience may be able to help somebody else. Love that.
Cassidy William...: Yeah, yeah.
Zach Plata: Yeah.
Cassidy William...: Or just encourage someone where if you also don't know something and being open about not knowing it, there might be someone else who's just like, oh, you don't know this either? Oh thank goodness. And little things.
Rizel Scarlett: Yes.
Zach Plata: Yeah.
Cassidy William...: It can be really helpful.
Zach Plata: For sure.
Rizel Scarlett: Yes. That's my favorite part.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. If you could undo one thing in your career, what would it be?
Rizel Scarlett: Ooh, I think I would start off at a job that had gave me more mentorship and encouragement at the beginning of my career. Yeah. Because I think I just jumped straight in and I was like, "I don't know what I'm doing." And then it's a startup and they're like, "We don't have time to help you figure out what you're doing." So yeah, I think I would've interviewed companies just as much as they're interviewing me to make sure that I was going to be set up in a good spot.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. It's hard to know to do that. I think for people who are fresh into the industry and stuff that you can, and you should be interviewing the companies that you are interviewing with, but especially when you're trying to get your foot in the door, it's kind of nerve wracking to think that way. But it's so important to be aware of that.
Rizel Scarlett: Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely in the mindset of I just need to get a job and these people want me.
Cassidy William...: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So what are you excited about in the world of software and tech now?
Rizel Scarlett: I want us to take open source more seriously and make sure that it's diverse and inclusive. And I think we're going in that right step, GitHub has this thing called All In and they're basically introducing students of color from HBCUs to open source. And there's just all these different opportunities. I'm seeing more black maintainers and stuff like that. And I'm really excited about that because at one point I thought that open source was not for me. And I didn't even realize that there was money in open source. So yeah, I'm just excited for open source and how it can continue to evolve.
Cassidy William...: I agree with you completely. I think open source is going to be eating the world of software more and more because it just makes sense. You can get so many great community contributions. You can build better software because it's transparent and open. More people can figure out like, oh, there's a bug here. There's a bug there. It's basically free testing. It's good for recruiting. There's so many great things in open source. And so I absolutely agree with you.
That being said, I think that's it. Rizel, thank you so much for being with us today. It was so awesome getting to talk to you.
Rizel Scarlett: Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was really fun.
Zach Plata: Yeah. It was awesome to learn about your background and G Code and everything surrounding that space.
Rizel Scarlett: Yay. Thank you.
Cassidy William...: Would you mind telling us where can people find you on the internet? And could you tell us a little bit more about G Code too and where people can find that as well?
Rizel Scarlett: Yes. So you can find me on the internet @blackgirlbites on Twitter. Well, literally on everything you could find me @blackgirlbites, but Twitters where I'm most active. And then for G Code, our website is thegcodehouse.com. And you can find out if you wanted to volunteer or if you wanted to join the program, it's all on that website so just go there.
Cassidy William...: Awesome.
Zach Plata: Awesome.
Cassidy William...: Well thank you so much and we will see you in the Twitter sphere then.
Rizel Scarlett: All righty. Thank you. Bye.
Cassidy William...: Bye-bye.
Zach Plata: Thanks, bye.
Cassidy William...: So I have some sage advice for you today. And my advice for you today is don't stress out too much about practicing for interviews. We talked a little bit about it on the podcast today, but there are so many times where I've spoken with people where they say, "Oh, you know what? I want to get a new job because I really don't like my current one, but I have to practice and everything. And so I'll wait for a less stressful time in my life to practice for interviews so I can interview." Don't do that. It is a waste of so much of your time and mental energy because you are already in a job that you don't like. Just start applying and interviewing. And it's a numbers game too. Keep applying to as many jobs as you can. Try to go for ones that you're not fully interested in first so that you can get interview practice under your belt. And also you never know if a job that you're not fully interested in could end up being something that you are really excited about.
And so get that practice in under your belt and do it live rather than practicing a bunch with a book and then kind of freezing when you actually get into the interview process. Good luck.
And once again, because making podcasts is expensive. This show is brought to you by Launch Darkly. Launch Darkly toggles peaks of 20 trillion feature flags each day and that number continues to grow and you should use them. You can head over to launchdarkly.com and learn about how. Thank you for making this show possible, Launch Darkly. It has been awesome. I have been Cassidy Williams, I'm head of developer experience in education at Remote. And I also do developer experience at OSS Capital. You can find me @cassidoo on most things.
Zach Plata: And I'm Zach and I'm a developer advocate at Rive. You can find me on Twitter @zachplata.
Cassidy William...: All right, thanks everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye.
Zach Plata: Thanks, bye.