This episode features an interview with Michael Chan, creator, podcaster, and Developer Experience Engineer at Chromatic. With over a decade of experience, Michael’s career saw him work with companies like Ministry Centered Technologies, The Pocket Group, and Sonic Boom Wellness. He’s also the host of the React Podcast and he built lunch.dev, the friendliest coding community for creative, curious, and compassionate web developers. In this episode, Cassidy and Zach sit down with Michael to discuss the importance of being kind, learning how to make amends, and their favorite holiday bites.
This episode features an interview with Michael Chan, creator, podcaster, and Developer Experience Engineer at Chromatic. With over a decade of experience, Michael’s career saw him work with companies like Ministry Centered Technologies, The Pocket Group, and Sonic Boom Wellness. He’s also the host of the React Podcast and he built lunch.dev, the friendliest coding community for creative, curious, and compassionate web developers.
In this episode, Cassidy and Zach sit down with Michael to discuss the importance of being kind, learning how to make amends, and their favorite holiday bites.
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Episode Timestamps:
(06:26): What Michael is working on right now
(09:50): What Michael’s day-to-day looks like
(16:04): What tools Michael uses
(19:26): How Michael got into the industry
(23:28): Rapid Fire Questions
(34:31): Random Segment Generator
(42:14): What Michael is excited about in the software world
(43:40): Cassidy’s Sage Advice
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“Something that I heard early on is that there's a staggering lack of kind people in tech, and I think that's still true. I think it was maybe more true now. I think that there are just nicer people in the world in general now, but I think that it's very true that you can go really far by just not being a jerk and just being someone that people don't hate being around.” – Michael Chan
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Links:
The Dev Morning Show (At Night) YouTube Page
Cassidy Williams: Hello everybody and welcome to The Dev Morning Show (At Night). My name is Cassidy Williams and I am here with my lovely co-host, as always, Zach Plata. Hey, Zach.
Zach Plata: Hey, Cass. We've got some holidays coming up soon. Do you have any interesting trip planned? We,
Cassidy Williams: yeah, I'm, I'm just seeing a lot of family over the next.
Month and a half, which is exciting. Um, but it's also so many humans to see, which I'm excited about. What about you?
Zach Plata: Same. Yeah. Uh, thankfully just staying in the area. Usually I'd have to like fly back to Chicago from wherever I live, but now I can just take a hop over to the suburbs and see my fam head home,
Cassidy Williams: That's pretty nice to be able to live close to family. Speaking of someone who has a family, We have Michael Chan on the show, .
Michael Chan: Excellent transition. That was beautiful. Wow. .
Cassidy Williams: Thanks. Chan is a DX engineer, a creator, a podcaster extraordinaire, and is super cool. Welcome Michael .
Michael Chan: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here. Me and I actually don't have children with me right now. So we're we.
Cassidy Williams: We're we're, we're good. If they come running in, that's fine. All good. Do you have any fun holiday plans?
Ooh,
Michael Chan: uh. I mean, I feel like fun and holiday plans are kind of, you know, it's like a questionable pairing right there.
Uh, there will be family and we will make fun, I'm sure. Um, great. But yeah, no, uh, food, I mean, food's, the best part of holidays is food is the driving
Cassidy Williams: thing. Yeah,
Michael Chan: it is. It is that like, I feel like if there was not food, like nobody would get together because like, I don't know who wants to see their family without their favorite dishes in.
I think maybe, I don't know, maybe, maybe that's just me. Um,
Cassidy Williams: she's like, well, I love my family, so I ,
Zach Plata: but I also love my mashed potatoes, so
Cassidy Williams: and pumpkin pie. I love that. It is pumpkin pie season.
Michael Chan: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Pumpkin pie. Okay. Something that I've gotten into recently is I always, as a kid, thought yams, like the candy yams were the grossest thing.
And like, like I think post 30 now, I'm. This is the best part of the meal, the candy
Cassidy Williams: yams. They're so good. And that is definitely a sign of being old because I feel I was the exact same way , where like, I remember all the grownups would be like, it's like candy. And I'm like, it's not candy, it's just it's a potato.
But now I'm like, that's candy.
Zach Plata: Yes, . I feel the same way about like green bean casserole. Oh, I was like very ugh about it as a child. But now I'm like, Okay.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, I'm just like this actually. Great. It's tasty. You can add some like little crunchies in there. Oh
Michael Chan: my gosh. The crunches. Okay. Question though about the green bean casserole.
Cause I feel like something about the holidays is you have this, this mix of traditions, right? And you know, one family like prepares it this way, another family prepares it this way. Like both think that they're, they're the best. It's like a real like East coast, west Coast, red vines, whatever the other one is.
Um, Type of situation. So for the green bean casserole in particular, do you, do you do the canned green beans or do you do. Fresh green beans.
Cassidy Williams: I think fresh. I am not okay much of a cook at all. , I, I like to eat like little packets of apple sauce and, and that's how I feed myself. But if I recall, the people who I care about who feed me go fresh,
Zach Plata: I think I go canned, but I don't have a preference.
Cassidy Williams: Okay. They're all good.
Michael Chan: Yeah, they are all good. . I mean, you put those like frenches, uh, onion rings on anything and it's better.
Cassidy Williams: So good. Yes, a thousand man. Let's turn this into a food podcast and not ask any questions. Um, all right, .
Michael Chan: Done. Done,
Cassidy Williams: but we probably shouldn't. So what are you working on right now?
Oh, I caught you right.
Michael Chan: Yeah. No, no, no. It's, it's right. Oh. Also like for those listening, um, you know, continuing on the food podcast for a little bit, I feel like there are like tiers of, um, of like, like crap coffee and I feel like Dunkin is the s tier, like, crap coffee. Um, anyway, just, just thought I'd say that.
Yeah. Yeah. .
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. Well, here's the thing. In the pandemic, I've become a tea sn. Oh, like that. That's okay. That's just the direction I've gone in and I am full force. Like I go to local tea shops only and I get loose leaf teabag and I like go with the recommendations of the people running the shops. And it is so fun where like I used to be the person going for like a crappy cup of tea coffee at like a Dunkin or a Starbucks or something.
But now, I have a system and it's, I feel so fancy and it's so good.
Michael Chan: Oh, you're t system person. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You different elaborate real quick
Cassidy Williams: times
Michael Chan: and everything. So you have like, like, like temperature time, like your perfect mix of like all of external ingredients.
Cassidy Williams: Yes, yes. And it's so good. I, I, I feel like I, it's like a little treat every single.
Michael Chan: We really do need to start a, like a tech foodie podcast. Where's this show? I wanna, yes. Like, I wanna elaborate on like this, this system, because I, I've never gotten into the tea system, but like people who love tea have a system, like that's what makes tea. .
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. And then if it's not some kind of fancy tea, it's bobba.
And I know that Zach has particular feelings about this. We get boba a lot. , uh, too much . It's so good.
Michael Chan: Bobba is great. That was great. Um, okay, to answer your question, what are you working on? Sorry, this is gonna be all over the place. Like I, I, I swear That's fine. Um, , uh, so right now, uh, I'm working on, every year I do this thing called React Holiday, and it's just kind of this celebration of react at the end of the year.
Um, uh, it's like roughly in the like advent 25 days thing, except I make no promises about how many you're gonna get. Uh, so yeah, it's just at React, do holiday. Um, I think this year I'm probably going to like, despite my long lasting feelings, like against, uh, next, uh, this year is really interesting because, you know, next incorporated a lot of like, react, uh, like 18 features that we haven't been able to see anywhere else.
Mm-hmm. . And so I'm really excited to play with kind of the all of the new React 18 features and next seems to be like the only place that I can do it. So I think I'm gonna go through, um, Alpha next Typey stuff. Um, so I'm gonna be doing that. Uh, I usually do it as a newsletter, so uh, react.holiday, and then I'll probably put out a bunch of videos and shorts on my YouTube channel, which I'm trying to get better at.
Uh, it it's at fantastic now.
Cassidy Williams: That's awesome. I react is incredibly fun to read through. I read through it every year. It's always good, even if it's something that I generally know, it's still just good refreshers and then you always learn a little something new at some point during it, and so highly recommend reading through that.
Michael Chan: Well, thank you for reading it. I appreciate that. That makes me feel good. , of
Cassidy Williams: course, I have to make a competitor with pre-Act. Holiday now
Zach Plata: is spicy.
Michael Chan: What were we gonna say, Zach?
Zach Plata: Oh, I was just gonna say, I think it's really opportune. I feel like I barely get any time to like keep up with any of the latest React features and all these things, and so like having it in a time. It's kind of like slowing down and getting a little more time to yourself.
It'd be good to just have some kind of resource to, um, look at all these things. So, yeah, I'm excited to check this out.
Michael Chan: Yeah, I feel like the whole like, advent thing is super fun because, you know, you, you are kind of like winding down on certain projects. Like you're not gonna be pushing a lot of stuff in those like last couple weeks presumably.
Um, and it's fun to just be like, okay, like what? Like what can I learn? Like what, you know, it'd be fun. And then holiday stuff is always, Extra. Like it's always a little bit silly and like you have these like really strained metaphors for like joy and Thanksgiving and all that. And I, I love it. Like I'm so into like strained metaphors, ,
Cassidy Williams: I, Sam, I love being able to really push the limits or just like puns where it's like, Reindeer Reader welcome or she.
Michael Chan: Exactly. There's so much opportunity.
Zach Plata: Well, speaking of pushing the limits cast, I think it's time to talk about a company that is pushing our limits of. Podcasts.
Cassidy Williams: That's a great transition to an ad read, Zach. Great.
Zach Plata: The Dev Morning Show (At Night) is a sponsored podcast. It means someone has to pay the bills around here.
We're sponsored by LaunchDarkly. And LaunchDarkly is the first scalable feature management platform. That means dev teams can innovate and get better software to customers faster. How? By gradually releasing new software features and shipping code whenever. Fast tracking their journeys to the cloud and building stronger relationships with business teams.
Thanks for the money LaunchDarkly Darkly
Cassidy Williams: Chan. What does your day to day look like?
Michael Chan: Okay, so my day pretty much always starts the same way. I, uh, because I'm, you know, getting older. I wake up about 15 minutes before my 6 45 alarm At six 30, I realize that I forgot to plug my phone in the night before and I plug it in and then I step out trying to be really quiet.
Cause my kids really like, wake up when I, uh, you know, go into the house. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have some quiet time. And then, because my phone's now plugged, exactly. 15 minutes later, my alarm goes off and then I run into my bedroom, waking everybody up, and then the day starts. So that's like kind of like the beginning of pretty much every day
It's regrettable every day, and I've never, uh, improved it. It's, it's just a broken system in my life, and it's everybody else's alarm right now. Um, and then, yeah, I think after that I spend like the most of the day just kind of like stressing out about what I'm gonna do in, in which order, and then kind of in the last hour of the day trying to jam it all in and, you know, then rinse and repeat
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, this is one of the most honest answers we've had to this question yet, and I really, yeah, really appreciate
Michael Chan: it, . Um, yeah, I mean that's honestly like I. Stress out a lot. And so like, it, it, it sounds like maybe, uh, too on the nose, but it is like, in fact like the way that I, that I work typically, and that last hour is, uh, fairly hyper productive to be honest.
Um, But yeah, so most of the, like, in terms of what I'm doing, uh, these days, I'm working with a company called, uh, chromatic and, uh, working on the storybook channel and I'm making a bunch of YouTube videos. And, um, I feel like this actual pattern has gotten worse now that I'm kind of a little bit more in like a creative space and not so much in a code, uh, pushing space where I can kind of hide behind certain things.
I just like, I, I just really like stress out about being like on camera and saying the right thing and, you know, not locking some, you know, stupid misconception into the, uh, anals of, of, of time for the rest of eternity. So, yeah, I that's where I'm at most of the day until the last hour of
Cassidy Williams: it, . I definitely relate to the on camera as I look at a camera right now,
But, uh, it's, it's one of those things where you, you do have to kind of be careful about everything that you record because you are not a jerk. I like to think that we're all, not jerks, but sometimes if you just miss words, something in some. The internet takes it in a weird direction and stuff. So you have to kind of be careful with your scripts.
Be careful with how you explain something cuz you don't wanna explain something in a certain way that's really confusing as people are learning something new there. There's a lot of, there's a lot of different ways of communicating that can be tough when you are recording it and it's on camera.
Michael Chan: Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, like, I worry a lot about that side of, of. Like putting someone on the wrong path, right? Like kind of off by an inch and then like off by a mile and like that stresses me out a lot. Um, but I know that like you've had to like balance that with also like getting every single word right? Or all of the, uh, trolls are gonna come out and just like pounce on you.
I think I experience that less and I. Like, I can't imagine ever creating, if I had to ha, like if I had more of that in the mix that would, like, I would just be a puddle on the floor. Most of the days
Cassidy Williams: it's, it's a thing, but it's all for the joy of teaching and learning ,
Zach Plata: it's such a unique and, and like different skill set that, like, I, I think moving into Dev specifically, like it's, it's something that kind of catches you off guard.
Like, oh yeah, I think I know this thing, but. Yeah, you have to teach people. It's like, oh. Do I know
Cassidy Williams: this thing? No, .
Michael Chan: That O right there. They're like .
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. Zach did a live stream recently. That was the most entertaining thing cuz he teaches very cool stuff at Atry, at his company and something was going wrong and just saw like the panic about, just for a second.
Cause he was like, no. Was trying to fix it and it was perfect. But it's those kinds. This is my nightmare. . Yeah. Yes. You gotta figure it out, especially if you're live and not recording it. Gosh,
Michael Chan: I, I swear streaming is such a great way to get over that though. Like, I love streaming something first because Yeah.
And I think it, like people who are there, I, I've been saying recently that there is, we are at a loss of quality for quality heckler. And I think something that's really beautiful about streaming is like someone is there, like, it's like the best quality heckler generally if you have like a, you know, fairly kind audience and whatnot.
Cause they're there, they like want you to succeed and they will tell you what you're doing wrong in an effort to help you succeed. And I love that. That is, that is very beautiful, beautiful symbiosis. Like, I feel like that, like introducing that has helped me on the other stuff. Cause like, oh yeah. Where you went through the, like the crap part of it where I said everything wrong and now I know all the right ways to say things.
Thank you. Friends and community.
Cassidy Williams: Right? That's. A very real thing where I, I've, like recently I ran into a bug and I was thinking, okay, maybe if I pull this up on a live stream, someone in like the chat will just say, oh, this is what you're doing wrong and I'll solve the bug. But then when I ran it, it worked.
And I was just, I was just kind of stunned on the stream, like, well, y'all fixed it, but I don't know why. , that was, that was a whole other side of that. That's a great moment
Zach Plata: to capture.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, they, they saw my rage .
Zach Plata: So, uh, Jan, what kind of tools do you use on a daily.
Michael Chan: Yeah, so, uh, that has been shifting quite a bit recently, and I actually prepared a little bit of list for this.
I'm gonna read 'em off, but, um, I use DaVinci Resolve as my editor a ton. I love it. I feel like I might make a course about it because I think it's so awesome, and as content becomes more, Important, you know, to the world. Um, there are things that I've learned the hard way that I think that could really like help people not have to do all that stuff.
But next on the list is Descripts just came out with a new version recently and it's awesome. Mm-hmm. and I feel like it may just replace video editing for most people anyway. Um, so yeah, so that I use, uh, ARC vs code. GitHub, A lot notion. Um, and then on the AB side, I have a, a, I'm shooting on a Sony A seven four, got a CAM link.
I have a Wave xlr, and then my sure SM seven B. So that's kind of, I mean, apart from my laptop, that's pretty much all the tools that I'm using these days.
Cassidy Williams: Wow. I love it. I would also love to see a course on DaVinci Resolve, cuz I downloaded it, opened it and I was like, oh no, I'm lost immediately. .
Michael Chan: It's true.
It's so incredibly overwhelming. Um, but it's so good, like when you can, when you actually like get around it,
Cassidy Williams: right? Yeah. And what's kind of your tech stack of choice lately? Is it still. I shouldn't say just react. Is it, is it react or are you kind of experimenting with other things?
Michael Chan: Yeah, so I, so my personal site, which is a train wreck, um, at chan.dev, and this will filter into one of our, uh, upcoming questions here.
Um, The is, I love 11. 11 is like my favorite way to build a, a website because it's, it just, you don't have any of that like react, like life cycle nonsense. It's just, yeah, make a bunch. You write some mark down and make a bunch of pages on the internet and it's beautiful. It's my favorite way to make a website.
I feel like a kid again when I'm using it.
Cassidy Williams: That one is really good. Between that one and Astro it, it feels almost like a return to. Web dev before React and stuff because it's simple. But you can add complex stuff if you want to.
Michael Chan: Yeah. I feel like we're at this like, and, and I realize that I'm older than both of you, but like the, I feel like we're at this age in technology where.
We're kind of all buying like our, our Camaros, right? Where like we, we, we saw, like as a kid we're like, oh, all I want is a whatever, you know, whatever Camaro the year is that you, uh, you know, came online to cars and then like, As a middle aged person, you're like, I'm gonna go buy that Camaro cuz I have money now.
I feel like that's . That's where we're at in like, you know, internet technologies. We're like, you know what, I'm just gonna build a server side page like I did in the good old days.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, just a, a return to basics because a lot of stuff is so cyclical where it hasn't changed much. It's just, it's easier to do now.
Yep. And, and so being able to return to that where it feels natural almost, but also kind of fun is it's nice. I like that we've gotten to that point. what got you into the industry in the first place?
Michael Chan: So I, uh, Yeah. Is, is really the, the short answer there. Um, , I was working with my dad, uh, on a family business.
We imported and exported furniture and I was doing some of the business operation type stuff, and it was, it just kind of collapsed in the, I don't know, what was that, 2008, 2009 recession? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I think we're coming up on a, we're in another one now, so I'm gonna have to start remembering what year that was to differentiate them.
Um, but we were in that time, Uh, yeah, the business just like fully, fully went under. I had to try to figure out what I was gonna do and I was like, well, you know, I like, I kind of know a little bit of Photoshop from being a photographer. I bet I could do some, I could like cut up some PSDs into H cml, which was very much a thing back then.
And, uh, I could make a little bit of money doing that. And so I kind of pivoted into, uh, tech and. In like a, like the most minimal way possible. So I was doing that and then I was like making people's email signatures for like, for their email clients. So it was just like anything that I could, like pick up that was kind of at the fringes that like nobody else wanted to do.
Uh, that's what I did. And I kind of like started to like roll that into like, then I was like updating WordPress templates and then I was kind of creating templates and yeah, just kind of this like snowball, um, effect just off of trying to. Make it work on these, you know, like 10, $15 an hour jobs, .
Cassidy Williams: And I mean, it snowballed a lot because of where you are now and I feel like you're one of the big voices in the React community and, and doing all kinds of cool things online and offline and stuff for developers.
And so the, the snowball works .
Michael Chan: It does, yeah. And I think, you know, something that I learned or I heard early on is, There's a staggering lack of kind people in tech, and I think that there, that's still true. I think it was maybe more true now I think that, that there are just nicer people in the world in general, um, now, and, but I think that this.
It's very true that like you can go really far by just not being a jerk and just being someone That's true. People don't hate being around .
Cassidy Williams: Totally. What a concept.
Michael Chan: what a concept. But yeah, it's true. Like just, um, I think, yeah, it's like, you know, you, you put the reps in and just kind of continue to like, try to be like a human, that people wanna be around and.
Like, even like even here hanging out on this podcast, like I feel like if I ever had a, a biography, it would be like, and then inexplicably Michael Chan , God knows why he is there, but like,
Cassidy Williams: But I know what, I know what you mean. I, I do think that like, first of all, that's imposter syndrome talking. You are not inexplicable, you're cool. But it, it is a thing where I, I do think a lot of tech work in general does snowball by being kind to people and networking and reaching out to people for help and, and for work, and figuring out how you can get that foot in the door as often as possible.
Michael Chan: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. And like finding your lane. Cuz I think for a lot of people that lane is open source. Sometimes it's just like straight up networking, like adding people on Twitter, I can't do that. That makes me feel so uncomfortable, just like reaching out to people on Twitter. Um, but for me it was a, you know, podcast.
I was just like, oh hey, I wanna learn this stuff. I'll talk with people who know this stuff. And yeah, I think streaming's a great lane for that. But yeah, there's so many ways that you can. Find a place that you feel comfortable and just build that network.
Cassidy Williams: All right, we are going to transition to rapid fire questions.
We're going to ask you questions rapidly. So first of all, we all have domain names and project ideas that we are squatting on. What are yours?
Michael Chan: Oh man. Most of mine are extremely inappropriate jokes that are like, I just keep renewing because every year they're just really funny to me. , I, I don't know if they're like, I mean, they're really bad.
Um, but one that always makes me laugh that is appropriate is, uh, the internet is al gores blog.com. Which I think you have to be of a certain age to really even understand why. That's funny. Which is why I keep renewing it for myself every year. .
Cassidy Williams: Sometimes you just have those domain piles where you're just like, you know, I'm gonna keep renewing this even though I'm the only person that will ever get this.
Michael Chan: A hundred percent. But you own it. .
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, it's mine.
Michael Chan: Yeah. These are like the original NFTs of the internet, I think.
Cassidy Williams: Mm. Yeah. The scarcity,
Michael Chan: interesting way of looking at it can only be one. It can only be one.
Cassidy Williams: Reminds me of something that. A friend, uh, Jason Langor said he was like, sometimes when I look at my projects or domains and stuff, I feel like a raccoon and I'm like, stay away from my trash.
Zach Plata: Um, alright. What is the most recent thing you over optimized?
Michael Chan: So I am a chronic under optimizer these days. Ooh. Yeah. I, and I have a story to go along with this. Um, when I was really starting to get into professional web development, um, I had a mentor, Kevin Thompson. Awesome guy. Super helpful. Um, We were building a site for this meetup that we were co-organizing at the time.
And I was like continually delaying it, you know, like I was doing like the front end design and you know, development stuff. Continually delaying it. Continually delaying it. And then I, one day I was messaging him, I was like, Hey, I'm almost there. Like whatever. And he's like, well you might wanna hurry up cuz I'm just like pushing your branch to production now.
And that changed that, that moment changed the way that I think. Like code and like getting out there completely. And um, yeah, so a lot of times, like now I just like, I like really live by that mantra of like, just get it out there. Like, like every time you step away, like push it as much as you can. Um, You know, to the extent that you are allowed to, right?
But like, just really like, get, get stuff out there quickly, but then also leave that time like, you know, make an account for that time to come back and make it better, um, when you have more information and whatnot. So yeah, definitely a chronic under optimizer. You can see that at my site@chan.dev. Um, you can see.
The extent to which I under optimize all of this, uh, , all of my work, .
Cassidy Williams: But it works. And it's public.
Michael Chan: Yeah. Yes, it works. And it's public. .
Cassidy Williams: That's what matters there. There's a quote somewhere where it was like, there's nothing more permanent than a temporary fix . Very true. Sometimes, oh, it hurts of code basis.
Just hearing that hurts. I know, it's, I, I, I only heard it recently and I was just like, this is a personal attack on meat specifically.
Michael Chan: Oh. Oh gosh.
Zach Plata: All the devs watching this are just. Oh
Cassidy Williams: no,
Michael Chan: we're sorry. We've seen the future and it's grim.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, and we know cuz we built it.
what is your golden rule for coding and for working?
Michael Chan: Um, Really live by, uh, like solid, the acronym that has a bunch of really confusing, uh, terms. Um, that was something that came to me early in my career. Not a huge fan of the person who kind of created the, uh, initialism there, but all of the underlying computer science concepts are, um, really solid.
Um, Really like those, what's your name? Um, honestly, , all of those, um, have really helped me organize code better, and I've found that no matter what it is, whether it's like React or CSS or you know, PHP back in the day, um, thinking about things in terms of decomposing them, using those principles has really helped me a lot.
It helps with writing tests, it helps with. You know, sharing code, um, you know, as we have more, you know, shareable, communicable, uh, components and whatnot, uh, I think solid has really helped me out. Everything kind of goes through that filter of how do I solidify, um, this code. Um, but yeah, that's, if I had a golden rule, that's probably, probably it.
Cassidy Williams: Nice. I also don't remember what those letters stand for. Like I know the concept. I, okay. I couldn't
Michael Chan: tell you. I try this every time. Like, because they're so silly. So like, what was it, single, single responsibility principle, right? That one's, that one's like the easiest one. Yes. Mm-hmm. . Uh, but then you have like open, open closed principle, uh, lis gov substitution Principle.
I, this is where it gets like, goes really off
Cassidy Williams: Thewhere else. Yeah. This, once again, I couldn't .
Michael Chan: Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's fun. Look it up. There's a good Wikipedia page. Yeah. .
Zach Plata: Um, what is your favorite? It depends. Question.
Michael Chan: A product that can help me with adult incontinence. Uh, it voiced as a millennial in 2015, , Alex
Cassidy Williams: Sorry. Um, what is fiber
Michael Chan: Yeah. Um, they're all, it depends questions, uh, but. What is fiber ?
Cassidy Williams: I did not, I did not expect the poop jokes to come out out of this one, but here we are.
Michael Chan: Here we are. Be
Zach Plata: honest, I don't know what the word incontinence means. ,
Cassidy Williams: it means you. I'm gonna let you Google that. I'm gonna Google that out,
Zach Plata: but I'm just like using.
From your reactions? I'm like, oh, just like .
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. I, I remember there was, oh, I forgot when it was. Someone was giving a talk about developer incompetence, , but they kept saying incontinence
Michael Chan: instead. No.
Cassidy Williams: And. It was, it was one of the best talks I've ever had the pleasure of listening to, especially when they realized their mistake after delivering a SED talk.
Michael Chan: Oh, that's amazing. I'm getting real like toilet South Park vibes right now, developer. It was,
Cassidy Williams: gosh, it was so funny. What is the oldest piece of tech that you still own?
Michael Chan: Okay. I pulled this out just in case. We talked about key. Um, so this is kind of like a video thing, but also say it so I have. When I was in the height of my, like keyboard, uh, lust phase, I bought myself, um, the one that I really wanted, which is this Apple extended, what was it?
Apple extended keyboard two. Wow. Yes, it is, uh, very cool. It sounds like it's just got like a really cool old school, kind of like thaddy knocking on wood kind of sound. I love it. It's really hard, like it is extended. So like if trying to use a mouse on my right side, it's like, like it's really long trying to re grab something around someone else.
Um, so that's really tricky. But, and then I have to have this like really kind of like shady kind of. I mate thing to connect it from PS two to us B, and I don't even know if they make these, I had to buy it on eBay from like, you know, rare stock type of thing. I think this costs more than the keyboard, to be honest, just to be able to plug it in.
I believe it. ,
Cassidy Williams: I love singles, old keyboards, but yeah, it's always like a bunch of chaotic dongles and stuff just trying to connect. Everything
Michael Chan: together. Yeah. And like people who complain about like us b a, have clearly never used, uh, PS two because like this, like it just disconnects itself. It just like you blow on it and they just fall apart.
It's like it's
Cassidy Williams: done. You're disconnected Now.
Zach Plata: Um, what is the cringes piece of code that you've ever written?
Michael Chan: Anything having to do with page. Any, use any tool, pation anywhere it, it's been gross every single time.
Cassidy Williams: I relate to that deeply. If I can avoid Pation, I will. . What is your favorite programming pun?
Michael Chan: Okay, so this isn't exactly a pun, but, um, every time I do uh, space between in Flex Box, I sing it in that Dave Matthew, cuz like back at like 2000 Dave Matthews wrote a song called The Space Between. And So , every time I write it, I can't help but the space between
Cassidy Williams: like, it's so stupid.
I request. You make a video just of that ? Yes.
Michael Chan: A YouTube short. Maybe that's my ray into TikTok is uh, the space between
Cassidy Williams: Wow. You have to know that. Really funny .
Zach Plata: And then lastly, what is your most used emoji?
Michael Chan: These. It has to be smiling with three hearts. I think that that is the, like the state that I wanna live in, is just being like, it just represents, you know, like gratitude and just happy to be here. Uh, like which is, which is honest.
Like I really am. Just anytime like this podcast hanging out with you, you all like just, I enjoy. Being here. I'm grateful to be alive and like that's the one that kind of embodies it for
Cassidy Williams: me. Good place. I love that one a ton. It's also probably mine, but I have one that's like on discord and it's a pumpkin, but it's the exact same emoji, but it's a pumpkin and I don't know why, but it's become my default.
It's, it's, it's just a pumpkin. With the three smiling hearts.
Michael Chan: It's great. The seasonal three hearts. I might have to go order them. Yeah. Fiber all season, all holidays. Give me the three hearts.
Cassidy Williams: All right. It is time for the random segment generator.
We're going to do random questions that are super, super random. And the first one, their segment is 4 0 4 s and heartbreak. What's something that has been taken off the internet? It shows a page not found that you miss.
Michael Chan: Okay, so. Uh, I'm not exactly, I don't think it's a 4 0 4. I think it's like some kind of like security error.
But my first podcast that I made with a friend of mine called, uh, bird Call Review. Um, I, I'm gonna be honest, I am sure that I said some terrible things on that podcast. Uh, so. If you find it, please don't judge me. But it will be hard for you to find because I think that there was some like security policy on my three ORs bucket that shifted and now none of those episodes are available.
Even though like the website and like iTunes still has 'em all. Oh. So I may or may not fix that. Maybe that was, that was God just being like, you know what? This doesn't need to be on the internet anymore. Doesn't need to be on the internet anymore. Get
Zach Plata: that off. Moving on to our next segment. It's. Merge conflict.
So what's a merge conflict that you had to deal with before and how'd you overcome it?
Michael Chan: Okay. So I feel like some of my, my answers are so just like non-sequitur for these things, but I think it does represent a pattern in my life of like running, like finding pain, and. Constantly avoiding it, uh, like forever, um, , but I tend to not have a lot of merch conflicts because I spent a lot of time like learning how to get, and so I just do a lot of things to avoid that.
So I try to, um, I live by a lot like a, you know, single feature per, per branch type of rule. Um, I'm always moving. History forward on, on those branches to make sure that there's no problems with those branches. Um, I love, uh, interactive rebasing stuff. So, you know, before I even try to merge something, I will like base it and go through all those commits.
Um, yeah, so I think that, uh, I mean it's kind of like a non-answer, but, um, that that's really
how
Cassidy Williams: I in general.
Michael Chan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also I will say fix up commits Google those because like those are, Amazing. Like in, in trying to avoid mark conflicts. I bizarre. I'm going to Google them. I have a dev two post on it and I will, I will share it with you.
Um, yeah, picks up, kiss, show notes. Commits are amazing. Amazing.
Cassidy Williams: All right. And our last segment is Launch Lightly Crash Dark. And, and owed to our delightful sponsors. . Uh, what is your best advice for someone starting out in the tech industry, the software development world?
Michael Chan: Oh, that's so funny. I like get good with get, like, I think that get is like, there we go.
Everything funnels through get these days right. And if you can get good with it, like it is a super. Um, being able to kinda like move, commits around and, you know, rebate stuff. I mean like literally like the only time I've ever maybe had a a wow while someone was pairing with me was when we did something surgical with Get, and they're like, oh wow, I had no idea that you could do that.
Um, yeah, get, get, get, get
Cassidy Williams: get is so powerful and magical sometimes, but like, if you, if you know how to use it, you. Anything.
Michael Chan: Yeah. Even bad stuff.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. , even stuff that is very unholy, .
Michael Chan: Uh, I don't like this code. I'm gonna commit it as somebody else.
Zach Plata: Um, if you could undo one thing in your career, what would that be?
Michael Chan: Oh, okay. Uh, I'll be real honest, just because it's kind of, it fits thematically. Um, Accidentally said there are two like big oops in my career. I accidentally said something, um, not, not accidentally, I said something ageist as a result of my own personal beliefs, being someone who is older in this field.
Mm-hmm. . And I deeply regret it to this day. I wish that I could unsay it. I can't. And that is something that, that, that haunts me. Uh, still I. I was able to like, recover from it, make amends and all that stuff. But it still is one of those things. It's just a, like, it is just a blight on my trying to be kind in this field and it, it, it haunts me.
Um, that and then, uh, what is it? React Gate in like 20 something, whatever I was hosting.
Cassidy Williams: Oh gosh. Yeah. That was like
Michael Chan: 2018. Yeah. 2018. I was MCing a conference when all of that nonsense was going down. Not nonsense. All that stuff was going down. I didn't understand what was happening and so like trying to be like a good mc.
I was like, Hey, let's, like, you know, like not, not worry about too much of the drama happening in the world right now. I didn't realize the. You know, like in, in all of the things that were happening and I feel like kind of like dismissing that particular thing as drama on accident, uh, just kind of like brought me into it in a way that I did not wanna be brought into it.
And I feel really bad about that even today. So these are two honest answers I think, but, . Yeah. I wish I could undo those. Hard, hard , hard reset on those.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. And for those who don't know what React Gate was, it was a rough time in the React community where diversity has not been great in general in tech and stuff, and, and all of that.
Came to light with React Gate in the React community at that point. And yeah, in, in general, Chan, I, I understand what it's like to. Accidentally slip up in, in a way where suddenly you, you can make amends, you, you can apologize all you want, but it's one of those things where you're just like, I messed up.
Yeah. But you are probably the person who will be the most unkind to yourself about it than than other people. So It is true. It is true. Don't get you down too much cuz you're not, you're not a jerk.
Michael Chan: Well, thank you. It is. I mean it is, it is wild though. And I do hope that, I mean, I. It's important, you know, like as, as people who are like trying to like find their place in this world and like get out there, like I do feel like it's an important reminder, like you will mess up and yeah, we're not gonna lie to you.
You're probably gonna think about it all the time, like, and it's gonna suck, but at the same time, like it, I think that if you do honestly make amends for those things and you kind of like find it in yourself to be like, okay, where was I wrong? Like, okay. And then like sit with that and, you know, kind of humbly approach the, the people that you offended or wronged in some way.
Like, you really can move forward. Um, but it doesn't, you know, you can't erase the past. So, yeah, I hope that anyone who's in that right now can be encouraged cuz it, you know, It's rough sometimes. And then listen to, you know, midnights by Taylor Swift. It's all about like regret and remorse and irreparable damage to yourself
Cassidy Williams: and the problem.
It's me,
on another end of the spectrum. What are you excited about in the world of software right now?
Michael Chan: Uh, you know, , it's funny we talked about it. Just that return. Simplicity. I guess the, a return to, maybe not simplicity, but like the, the core concepts of the web, right? Like the Holy Tri Trinity of the web, um, you know, html, uh, JavaScript and css and kind of a renaissance of what can we do with these, right?
How far can we take these? I love that cuz I think at, at the end of the day, I like, those are the technologies that I just really love and trying to figure out how to use them minimally and effectively, uh, is, is fun. Right? It's a fun part of the problem to, to do that. And I just really, I'm glad that we're.
Turning back into a space where that is fun and there's discovery there, and we're learning about all the new cool CSS stuff that's just built into the platform. Um, and then with accessibility, like re like rediscovering all of these elements that have been there for a really long time and. Supply superpowers to your, your websites.
Uh, just, yeah, there's, there's a lot of rediscovery that's happening and I love it.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, for sure. It's, it's very cool to witness it happening and kind of be a part of it too as we're all building stuff. All right. It is time for the last part of the show. It's Cassidy's sage. And I'm Cassidy.
This advice might sound cliche. It might sound silly, but be kind. Kind of like what Michael has learned, what we've learned, what we've seen throughout the industry, the people who are kind and helpful and. Are good to work with and, and try to be collaborative, try to be helpful, try to be pushing things forward for the next generation of tech people.
It's such a good thing to do in general, just to be a good citizen, but also for your career in general, because people want to work and be around people who are kind and are helpful. So be nice to everyone, everybody. But anyway, Zach Chan, thank you so much for joining a podcast today. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Michael, where can people find you? What, uh, what things do you wanna
Michael Chan: plug? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, um, I am chantastic on Twitter while Twitter, uh, has not collapsed and fallen off into the ocean of old internet things. Uh, I am working on a YouTube channel, so at chantastic on YouTube and, uh, yeah, React Holiday. If you wanna learn a little bit about, uh, React 18 through Next 13.
Uh, I'm gonna be, The, you know, 25 ish days before, uh, Christmas.
Cassidy Williams: All right. Awesome. And once again, because making podcasts is expensive, this show is brought to you by LaunchDarkly. LaunchDarkly Toggles. Peaks of 20 trillion feature flags each day, and that number continues to grow, and you should use them.
You can head over to LaunchDarkly.com and learn about how. Thank you for making this show possible Launch. I've been Cassidy Williams. You can find me at cassidoo, C A S S I D O O on most things. And I'm CTO over at Contenda.
Zach Plata: And I'm Zach, and I'm a DevRel at Rive. And you can find me on Twitter at
Cassidy Williams: zachplata. Thank you for tuning into The Dev Morning Show (At Night).
Make sure you head over to our YouTube channel where you can like and subscribe. You can also listen to the audio version of this wherever you get your.