This episode features an interview with Eve Porcello, software engineer, instructor, author, and co-founder of Moon Highway. Since starting her company in 2012, Eve has created video content for egghead.io, O'Reilly Media, and LinkedIn Learning. She has taught JavaScript, GraphQL, and React workshops to tech professionals for nearly a decade and is a frequent speaker at conferences. In this episode, Cassidy and Zach sit down with Eve to discuss building practical tools for yourself, apps for teachers, and the power of the cowboy emoji.
This episode features an interview with Eve Porcello, software engineer, instructor, author, and co-founder of Moon Highway. Since starting her company in 2012, Eve has created video content for egghead.io, O'Reilly Media, and LinkedIn Learning. She has taught JavaScript, GraphQL, and React workshops to tech professionals for nearly a decade and is a frequent speaker at conferences.
In this episode, Cassidy and Zach sit down with Eve to discuss building practical tools for yourself, apps for teachers, and the power of the cowboy emoji.
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Episode Timestamps:
(01:33): What Eve is working on right now
(03:41): What Eve’s day-to-day looks like
(05:28): What tools Eve uses
(07:17): How Eve got into the industry
(10:12): Rapid Fire Questions
(21:13): Random Segment Generator
(28:54): Cassidy’s Sage Advice
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“Because a lot of what I do is learning-related, sometimes I can get down a road of just trying to learn too much or taking too many tutorials or not really getting into the weeds with something. So I think building something that is somewhat practical, or maybe even just for a single user app, is nice because you'll run into problems that you don't in a nice little clean edged tutorial. So building something is super important, I feel like, and I try to not break that rule.” – Eve Porcello
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Links:
The Dev Morning Show (At Night) YouTube Page
Cassidy Williams: Hello everybody and welcome back to The Dev Morning Show (At Night). My name is Cassidy Williams and I am joined by my wonderful, as always, co-host Zach Plata. Hey
Zach.
Zach Plata: Hey Cass. I just realized that I think this weekend is the Super Bowl. Are you doing anything?
Cassidy Williams: Is it? Is it this weekend? I don't actually know.
I
feel like
Zach Plata: every year it's like, oh, it's happening this weekend, and it just creeps
Cassidy Williams: up. I thought it was the Grammys
this weekend.
Oh.
Zach Plata: Okay. I might be
Cassidy Williams: wrong, . I don't know. Hey, maybe our guest will know. We on the show this week, we have Eve Porcello. Oh my gosh. I'd said it wrong. Gosh, I'm the worst. Maybe our guest will know.
We are joined today by Eve Pello. Uh, I got your name wrong the first time. I'm the Worst. Eve is a software developer, instructor, and co-founder at Moon Highway. Hello. Hello.
Eve Porcello: Sorry about that. I think it's great. And if you offered me $5,000 and said, what's this weekend? I would say, I have no idea. I wouldn't know.
So I'm very sorry that I
Cassidy Williams: can't. Great. I'm, I'm glad we're all on the same page of being really cultured people. .
Eve Porcello: Absolutely. Yeah. Always. Sports
Cassidy Williams: and sports and, and music
Eve Porcello: and stuff.
Cassidy Williams: Yes. Culture. That being said, tech is
Eve Porcello: really cool. Sure. . Ew. What are you working on right now? Well, I am working on a new course on GraphQL.
There's all sorts of kind of advanced things that people ask me about that I wanna talk about, about like cashing and client stuff and all sorts of fun things like that. I'm trying to work on that. Um, I'm also working on this app that I've been building for a long time. I'm the only user of it, , but it's for teachers to organize their notes, the best kind, um, exponential growth always.
Um, yeah, so it's just like a note app for teachers, so you stay on topic if your brain is filled with too many things. So that
Cassidy Williams: sounds very, very necessary. Back, back when I was teaching full-time, I, I had to keep my notes on the side and look back at it regularly because it was, like you said, sometimes someone asks a question and then you just go off so far into a very different
Eve Porcello: tangent.
Totally. I think like time management is such a tricky thing, so it's helpful with that stuff too. So you're not Yes, it's not like four o'clock and . Everyone is like, we didn't talk about anything you said we would talk about, so
Cassidy Williams: I was like, we're less at one still.
Eve Porcello: So , so is this okay?
Zach Plata: Well, speaking of GraphQL and caching, it's time to talk with the people who give us the cash LaunchDarkly.
The Dev Morning Show (At Night) is a sponsored podcast, means someone has to pay the bills around here we're sponsored by LaunchDarkly, and LaunchDarkly is the first scalable feature management platform. That means dev teams can innovate and get better software to customers faster. How? By gradually releasing new software features and shipping code wherever they.
Fast tracking their journeys to the cloud and building stronger relationships with business teams. Thanks for the
Cassidy Williams: money LaunchDarkly.
Thanks for the money LaunchDarkly. Anyway, back to . Uh, because you teach and do so many different software developmenty things, what does your day-to-day look like? I imagine it varies.
Eve Porcello: it does vary a lot. Um, I, yeah, it could be teaching a workshop one day or coding all day, or, um, sometimes I'm a little troll lady who's editing all day. So it really varies. I try to kind of focus on one thing per day if I can. Cuz I'm not the most talented of multitaskers, even though I would like to be
But, um, if I can get away with it, it's usually one of those things.
Zach Plata: Do you have a preference or least preference of any of those?
Eve Porcello: Ah, really good question. I think I really like teaching a lot. I. Yeah, I'm starting to get asked to come teach in person a little bit, which is always kind of an interesting thing because I haven't done a whole lot of that.
I don't know if you've been in watching the news, but, um, , there's,
Cassidy Williams: there's something going around, right?
Eve Porcello: Yeah. . Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, it's kind of funny. And then you go to the office. , it's kind of empty and strange. So, uh, we'll see how that shakes out over time. But I do like teaching a lot, so that's probably my favorite if I had to pick.
Cassidy Williams: He's also a really good teacher. You should see
Eve Porcello: her workshops. They're great. That's very nice. I definitely need to, it's very,
Cassidy Williams: it's, I'm speaking, not because I'm a total shill for our guest, but it's the actual
Eve Porcello: trick. , the payment that I made to you has clearly made it to your inbox. So inbox, what are you talking about?
Zach Plata: No one knows. I definitely, that's, we could use a refresher . Oh yeah. I definitely could use a refresher on GraphQL for sure. Mm-hmm. . Um, but speaking of, you know, what kind of tools do you use on a
Eve Porcello: daily? . I use a lot of screen flow for recording things and a lot of VS code. I use React and Node and Graph QL most of the time.
Um, I use Apollo client and Server mainly, but I, I've been playing around with Relay as they become more of. Thing, uh, that people are using and asking questions about, and then rust as well. So I feel like that's something people are, you know, the old thing where everyone is rebuilding everything that is JavaScript and Russ.
So, um, they call me and ask me questions that I'm starting to learn the answers to. So yeah, .
Cassidy Williams: Wow. I, yeah, the, the move to Rust has been very interesting to witness and I have not learned any of it yet, but I feel like I need to catch this hype train while it's. Still like early in the days before it leaves the station or whatever the phrase is.
Eve Porcello: Yeah, it's kind of fun. It's um, I feel like I just moved into a new house too and there's all sorts of like iot applications that you can get into with rust and Nice. I just want to build dumb stuff for my house to like annoy my husband and cats. So , I feel like I will go that route as well.
Cassidy Williams: I feel like that's the perfect application of it.
Of course. Yeah. ,
Eve Porcello: some might disagree, but Go ahead, .
Cassidy Williams: But how many of them are there compared to everyone else in the world? Three versus, yeah.
Eve Porcello: You lost. Yeah. .
Cassidy Williams: What got you in the industry in the first place? .
Eve Porcello: So I moved from Chicago to Seattle in 2010. Chicago, what's up? A long time ago, and Chicago's still my favorite city on earth.
I think. Uh, yeah, I, the laws you have to work. Somehow at Microsoft in some sort of way. So before I worked there, I was like , I don't know, cutting like a weird woman's bangs and like being her personal assistant. And I had no real job or job prospects. So I then got into like project management and content management through that, which then became more technical.
In wire framing and project planning, things of that nature. And then that became my interest in web development. So I, wow. Just kind of needed a job. So , that's where that all came from. Best way to do
Cassidy Williams: it, I guess. Needing .
Eve Porcello: Yeah. Um, yeah. And then I moved to Lake Tahoe in 2012, and there's really no. There, or at least there weren't at that time.
And so I finally conceded to working in a family business with my husband. So he had worked as a web developer and I was like, I guess I'm, you force my hand if I want to stay here. . So there
Cassidy Williams: it's, I guess I like you enough to do this,
Eve Porcello: I suppose. Yeah, . Then I build things for the house with iot to bother him.
So it all comes full circle.
Cassidy Williams: That's awesome though, that you both work together and, and are able to live where you want and kind of build what you want from home too.
Eve Porcello: Yeah. Um, yeah, we had the luck of being proximate to the Bay Area from Tahoe. Mm-hmm. . Um, we've since moved to Oregon, which is, uh, kind of a fun little startup thing going on here too.
So there's all sorts of Yeah. People doing cool little things here, so I think it's a good fit.
Cassidy Williams: I feel like there's a lot of little hubs in Oregon, like Portland and Bend and a bunch of different cities with like decent tech companies are, I shouldn't say all, all tech companies I'm sure are decent in some way, but like, like there's really large ones like Intel that have a big presence there and then smaller ones like Code Pen for example.
Eve Porcello: Totally. Exactly. So yeah, it's, it's been fun to. Yeah, I have no other choice at this point. So yeah, that's what we're, that's what we're doing. . This is where we're at. I'm unemployable in other contexts. Yes. , we'll
Cassidy Williams: have to lure you back to Chicago at some point then. Oh
Eve Porcello: yeah. You might have a captive audience on that one for sure.
We're, we're, we're, we're
Cassidy Williams: of the winter. It's fine. Yeah, it's fine. . Alright. It is time for rapid fire questions.
We're going to ask you questions rapidly. Let's go. Okay. The first one, we all have domain names or project ideas that we're squatting on. What's one of yours? I have
Eve Porcello: an idea. And the domain for JavaScript In the Wild, which is a coding educational show. Where you pretend to be solving coding problems while you're on a backpacking trip or a hiking excursion of some sort.
And I have, we've written the script for the first episode, but we just keep not doing it. So I decided. Yeah, I think I can say that openly today to pressure myself to finish work. So everyone's gonna be demanding it. Yes, it's in the open. That's a very good, that's an amazing idea though. Yeah, I think it would be funny because I even bought this laptop that's all like beat up.
It looks like my laptop, but it's broken and so it just sounds fun to like carry it out and drop it and then. Stuck, I dunno. . Yeah, someday. Someday.
Zach Plata: What is the most recent thing you
Eve Porcello: over-optimized? The app I was telling you about before, the kind of teacher application, again, one user for this app at this moment, I built it using.
Apollo Federation, which is a way of scaling out your Graph Hill microservices, which is very useless because there's one person using it. I was gonna say . That's for
Cassidy Williams: big teams, isn't
Eve Porcello: it? , it's, it's, it's for teams that are located all over the globe. I, when I talk about it, I'm like, yeah, this is great for your.
Enterprise software solution. So yeah, I decided to roll that out in this app, but it's, it's fun to play around with and there's probably some sort of need for it, but over optimization is definitely the word on that for sure. , it's.
Cassidy Williams: Amazing. And I appreciate when things scale that much just for yourself.
Eve Porcello: Yeah. It's, I'm a, I'm a demanding user. Cassidy. So , it's like, there's like
Cassidy Williams: quote locally. Yeah. It's like that quote from the office. There's a point where like, . Kelly Kapur is saying like, oh, I managed the customer support department. And they're like, isn't that just you? And she's like, yes, but I'm not easy to manage
Eve Porcello: I forgot about that.
Cassidy Williams: too real. Okay. What is your golden rule for coding and working in.
Eve Porcello: I think because a lot of what I do is learning related, sometimes I can get. Down a road of just trying to learn too much or taking too many tutorials or, uh, not really getting into the weeds with something. So I think building something that is, uh, somewhat practical or, uh, maybe even just.
For a single user app like you're talking about, is nice cuz you'll run into problems that you don't in a nice little clean edged tutorial. So building something is super important, I feel like, and I try to, I try to not break that rule, but. Hmm. We'll see it happens, but it's good to do . It's,
Cassidy Williams: it's a good golden rule.
Totally.
Zach Plata: What is your favorite? It depends. Question.
Eve Porcello: Wow. Well, I'm a teacher, so I say it depends all the time to get me out of all sorts of , pickles and situations. But, um, I think the, it depends. I constantly talk about, Like, why, what tool would you use for this job? A lot of times people don't want to know the definitive answer or the definitive best practice, which always changes every five minutes.
And I think it depends, uh, really is useful in those cases because it does defend, like, what does your team look like? Are you. What is the skill level with certain technologies, and I think all of that really affects the outcome quite a bit. So even though I hate to say it, I say it all the time and I. , uh, we'll say it in the feature because it does depend.
It really
Cassidy Williams: does. It's, it's the ship. We all float on that. It depends. Yeah. . Totally. What is the oldest piece of tech you still own?
Eve Porcello: This is a tricky one for me because I'm the opposite of a hoarder. I will throw things away before you're a purger. I'm a purger. So yeah. I've posted a lot of things on Facebook marketplace that.
family actively uses and, uh, , like I just want it out of the house. So my oldest technology, I'll show it to you here, is pen and paper because I write stuff down all the time and I never throw away notebooks that have too much writing in them. And that's like the only thing I'll hang onto. So I wish I could say something cool like an old game boy or whatever, but that stuff's on marketplace and that's out.
That's with the new owner. . Honestly, I
Cassidy Williams: respect it because I, I think about like my pile of cables in my closet where like, you never know if you might need a cable,
Eve Porcello: but I probably, I have to go buy the cable again. That , that's, it's a really bad thing actually.
Cassidy Williams: It's not, well, it's not great that, that's why I'm like, so I should keep hoarding because what if I need this cable, but also,
A decently paid software engineer. I could probably afford to buy a cable on occasion.
Eve Porcello: On occasion, but you have it when you need it and the time is valuable, so yeah. Yeah. It's in the cord jungle somewhere. . Yeah, that's actually a great name for a product cord Jungle. Like a cord.
Cassidy Williams: I was just gonna say, that could work really well.
Tool that could work really well with JavaScript and the wild as well. Ooh, the cord
Eve Porcello: Jungle. There you go. Let me get outs. Pencil, paper, . Go jungle. Perfect. Yes, this way. I got it. Okay, we're good. All right,
Zach Plata: great. Perfect. . All right. Have you written a piece of cringy code? And if so, can you recall
Eve Porcello: what it was?
Of course, I have, I, I feel like a lot of the worst code that I write, um, is just kind of forcing everything into the same exact file and not never abstracting anything into a function elsewhere. So it'll just, I'll rewrite the same code over and over again where a function elsewhere would be more helpful.
So I don't know that I have a very specific example, but, um, sometimes people talk about the problem of. Like breaking things down too much, modularizing everything too much. And I'm like the opposite. I have like an 800 line file and I'm like, I'll scroll through that thing. I'll find what I need. So that's, that's pretty gross overall
But I do that all the time.
Cassidy Williams: I, I saw an XKCD comic recently where it was talking about like how to ensure your code will last forever, and it's just like you just put it in this way and it's a temporary fix. That means that it's going to last forever.
Eve Porcello: forever, temporary fix. That's. Locked in . Yep.
Zach Plata: Or you just scare everyone and then put in a comment above that code and just like, do not delete this.
It will break everything. Yeah. Oh, I've seen have your name cemented
Eve Porcello: there forever. a treat for all. Yes. Yeah.
Cassidy Williams: forever. That's leaving a legacy, right? Leaving a legacy code. Speaking of that, what's your favorite programming? Pun
Eve Porcello: my favorite programming pun. Pun is an interesting one. I don't know that I have them.
I think something I do a lot is make up fake, um, , like acronyms for things. There's so many acronyms. So, um, like A, B, C, and then always B. And then the C is really long, like completing your code at a level that I think is good. , I don't know, , but it's pretty good, I think. No, that's not the best one. But, uh, yeah, those are fun to work with.
Um, GraphQL, you can fill in ql. Graph Queen Latifa, cuz she's the one who created it. I, I like spreading information and misinformation as much as possible. So, ,
Cassidy Williams: I think that's a great poll quote for this episode. I love spreading information and misinformation as
Eve Porcello: much as I, great. Perfect. I'm doing my job here,
Zach Plata: All right. And lastly, what is your
Eve Porcello: most used. Probably the emoji where the face is melting into a puddle. That one is used a lot cuz it describes my emotional state accurately a lot. And uh, also the cowboy emoji I like a lot. I'll just send that to people without a lot of context and, yeah. . Mm-hmm. . The is like,
are you all right? No.
Oh God.
Just try that with your friends. Like just pop that in the chat. Someone you haven't talked about to for a couple months. Yeah, just, just that and , I kind of want to now Yeah, just tweet
Zach Plata: that and, and see what happens. ,
Cassidy Williams: I do think that the cowboy is an underappreciated emoji though. I, I kind of, I toss it at the end of sentences sometimes and it's kind of just me thinking like Yeha.
Yeah. And, and it, it's, it's a good time.
Eve Porcello: Absolutely. It's, there's a lot of action that you can spring into with that. Yeehaw, let's. It's a, it's an active emoji for sure. And a confusing one, so,
Cassidy Williams: yeah. Yeah. And that's what it's all about,
I'm dying. Okay. Anyway, it's time for the random segment generator. Ah,
okay. We're going to ask you random things and our first random segment. Dev. Oops. What's the story of something that you broke?
Eve Porcello: Well, something I do a lot before I give a talk is, uh, break the app right before I present. So, um, one of the, one of the talks that has been really. A memorable one for me was at React Rally in 2018.
I broke the app the night before, which was an app where everybody connected to it and like played music and it was very involved and. , I just was messing with it a little bit because I started to like panic and be nitpicking about things. So I broke that and cried in a hotel room in Salt Lake City for like 30 minutes.
And , I was like, this is gonna be bad. I can't do this and question my whole existence. But, um, but yeah, that could easily be solved by, um, just locking that down maybe a couple days before and. Uh, for a walk or it's a dinner or something instead of, uh, ruining my night. ,
Cassidy Williams: that's, that's such a very real thing where just it will always go wrong if you do it live and then like you, you start to over-prepare and just, yeah, it's happened too many times in my life.
Yeah. It could be a little
Eve Porcello: different or better. No, you're done. Like, don't. What if I added this little thing? No, an act of self-care is to not do that like 48 hours, just lock it down. True.
Cassidy Williams: It reminds you of, like when I was a teenager, I remember thinking, okay, if I'm, if I'm going to a place, I have to remember to not papa as it right beforehand because it will be worse and, and it was a lesson that I had to learn the hard way.
Yeah, and it's a very similar thing with your code where. Yeah. You just have to let it be how it is. Don't pop that zip because it will look worse. Don't fix that or add that feature or anything because you'll make it worse.
Eve Porcello: Right. Before a beautiful metaphor. Absolutely. I agree. Thank you. I think, yeah, , I think that, yeah, that sums it
Cassidy Williams: up.
Yeah, that's, that's us .
Eve Porcello: Perfect.
Zach Plata: All right. Moving on to the next segment. We have merge conflict. So what is a merge, conflict, work or personal that you've dealt with in the past and overcame?
Eve Porcello: I think moving was something that there were a lot of merge conflicts with recently. Mm-hmm. , I moved into a temporary home for.
Four or five months and then into a more permanent situation. And we put a bunch of stuff in storage and I forgot about everything that was in there. It was like the door slid shut and my brain was erased of everything that was out of mind. So we started pulling stuff out of there and I had like bought new versions of it or was like, I have nowhere to put this.
Why did I even bring this? And it was just this like old life, new life coming together. And uh, there were a lot of things that were. Wildly off about that experience. So if I were to do that again, perhaps creating some sort of a list or , um, having a better what a concept. What a what an idea. A spreadsheet.
A a notepad technology.
Cassidy Williams: A picture of a box. Even
Eve Porcello: literally one picture would've saved so much time. But, um, yeah, that was. That was a fail. I hadn't moved really for 10 years and that became a skill that I lost in that time. ,
Cassidy Williams: you also, even if you are a perjury, you don't realize how much of a hoarder you are until you move.
You just have
Eve Porcello: That's true. So much stuff. That's true. That's very fair. Maybe I'm less of a purger than I thought cuz I just pictured the. Maybe I'm more of a liar than I thought, cuz I just pictured all of the . The box is filled with so much stuff. So yeah, that's, we're past that now, but a conflict to be sure.
Yeah. Yeah. Moving is
Cassidy Williams: the worst.
Eve Porcello: Awful. Truly a nightmare. It
Cassidy Williams: really is. Oh, and I moved to, to Chicago. We also put stuff in storage and we said we were only going to bring the essentials to our apartment until we moved into a more permanent place. And yeah, I accidentally left my contact lenses and a bunch of bathroom stuff in the storage, but I did remember to take out the wig bin.
And so I had all kinds of different wigs and hats and costumes, but I did not have contact lenses. About eight months.
Eve Porcello: Honestly, that might be an okay trade off though. Like think about, I'm sure you used those wigs and hats. I did, yeah. Oh, I did those. I was just like, if I guess that's marked essentials . I was
Cassidy Williams: just like, if it's going to be essential, I gotta take advantage
Eve Porcello: of this.
True. I cannot see, however, I look great,
Zach Plata: but I don't need great and green.
Eve Porcello: We're just like, Ooh, my hair's tall today. Gosh, I'd love to see that wake box, by the way, unrelated. Oh, I'll pull
Cassidy Williams: it out sometime. Great. Made up some good tos and stuff, . Sure. All right. And this last segment is something you're proud of.
What's something that you designed, created, built that you're proud of?
Eve Porcello: Well, I made a class for Egghead IO on GraphQL, like the query language that came out in 2019. And a lot of classes, as we know as developers, they change and morph and break, and that one has stayed really solid and I can't take credit for them.
Uh, that really, because GraphQL is just, the query language bit is very stable. But, um, it is kind of a good representation of what I like to do, which is build something that's helpful, hopefully, but also very ridiculous and objectively nonsensical. We build a pet library in there and, uh, yeah, check in and check out pets like their books that.
Nonsense, but it, the class is still working. And that's, that's a good feeling, . Sure.
Cassidy Williams: It was beautifully designed too. I remember when it came out, I think I zoomed in and out on the actual webpage for it just repeatedly many times. Oh, that's nice of you to
Eve Porcello: say. That's cool. I have nothing to do with that either, but um, yeah, just pretend that you did hooking it up.
It was all me. Everything is just me. No one helps me. , no one's ever helped me. I'm on an island. I hope you cut out the part where I'm joking about that .
Cassidy Williams: She's, we'll just put a cowboy emoji over it. Yeah,
Eve Porcello: yeah. here.
Oh gosh. Perfect.
Cassidy Williams: I'm still laughing about the crying emoji or the, the, are you okay and No, with the cowboy emoji. I'm trying to continue.
Okay. Anyway, yeah, it is now time for Cassidy's Sage advice.
I'm Cassidy. Have some sage. And advice, uh, and my advice to you. Similar to what Eve's building though, you don't need to build an enterprise level software for yourself. I do think that it's a good thing to build tools for yourself in general, because a lot of times you can solve your own problems and you are kind of the ideal user.
And it might just be a little bit of a script. It might be just a simple thing, but when you build something for yourself, it's something. You can make design decisions and you can make it something that makes your life better in some way for you. And you don't have to follow the best practices of the world because you are your user and you won't follow those edge cases cuz it's just you and it.
It's kind of a fun way to build without having to worry about all of the extra fluff. All that being said, Zach Eve, thank you so much for joining us today.
Eve Porcello: Thank you. This has been so much fun.
Cassidy Williams: Eve, where can people find you on the internet? Is there anything you wanna plug for us?
Eve Porcello: You can find me at Eve Porcello most places.
I have a GraphQL kind of newsletter course on graphqlworkshop.com. Or you can check out moonhighway.com for all sorts of articles. And there's some free video classes there that just were launched too.
Cassidy Williams: Amazing. And once again, because making podcasts is expensive. This show is brought to you by LaunchDarkly LaunchDarkly, toggles Peaks of 20 trillion feature flags each day, and that number continues to grow, and you should use them.
You can head over to launchdarkly.com and learn about how. Thank you for making this show possible. LaunchDarkly, I've been Cassidy Williams. You can find me at cassidoo, c a s s i d o o on most things, and I'm CTO over at Contenda.
Zach Plata: And I'm
Zach, and I'm a DevlRel at Rive, and you can find me on Twitter at zachplata.
Cassidy Williams: Thank you
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