This episode features an interview with Dalia Abo Sheasha, Senior Product Manager at Microsoft. Dalia has spent a decade of her career developing application servers and developer tools in the Java ecosystem and has contributed to open source projects like Open Liberty and EclipseLink (JPA). Dalia’s passions lie in teaching, mentoring, and making technology more accessible to developers around the world. In this episode, Cassidy and Zach sit down with Dalia to discuss ‘it depends’ questions, developer tools, and writing digestible code.
This episode features an interview with Dalia Abo Sheasha, Senior Product Manager at Microsoft. Dalia has spent a decade of her career developing application servers and developer tools in the Java ecosystem and has contributed to open source projects like Open Liberty and EclipseLink (JPA). Dalia’s passions lie in teaching, mentoring, and making technology more accessible to developers around the world.
In this episode, Cassidy and Zach sit down with Dalia to discuss ‘it depends’ questions, developer tools, and writing digestible code.
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Episode Timestamps:
(03:36): What Dalia’s day-to-day looks like
(04:37): What tools Dalia uses
(07:12): What got Dalia into the industry
(11:55): Zach and Cassidy share how they got into the industry
(14:37): Rapid Fire Questions
(21:21): Random Segment Generator
(26:53): Cassidy’s Sage Advice
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“Keeping a developer in that flow state where they're writing code most of the time is the most important job of any tool. Whatever tool gets a developer to that point in time where they're just writing code, writing code, writing code, and not worrying about switching context at all, I think that's the best tool you could use.” – Dalia Abo Sheasha
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Links:
The Dev Morning Show (At Night) YouTube Page
Cassidy Williams: Welcome to the Dev Morning Show (At Night). My name is Cassidy Williams and I am accompanied by my wonderful co-host, Zach Plata. Hey Zach. How's it going?
Zach Plata: Good, Cass. Okay. I know you're here just talking about this like five minutes before this recording. Okay. Rosemary Oil, how it helps your hairs not fall out.
That's great. I need to know where you get your
Cassidy Williams: spritz. Okay, so Rosemary Oil, it has a lot of really good active ingredients that are in various hair products. And so after the shower, I, I do a little spritz of rosemary oil, and it has been a game changer for just like hair falling out in the shower and stuff in general.
Highly, highly recommend it. Speaking of people with good hair, Dalia, welcome to the show. Dalia is a senior program manager at
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Microsoft. Hi, Cassidy. Zach, thank you so much for having me and the compliment on my hair. That's very nice of you.
Cassidy Williams: It's lovely. You got great hair. Have you tried the rosemary oil
Dalia Abo Sheasha: thing?
No, I wanna try that like right away cuz I do have the issue, so I will try. It's,
Cassidy Williams: it's so constant. I feel like I shed like a dog. And then the more I talk to people about it, the more they're like, Same. I need to figure this out. And it's, it's been helpful.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: You should start a sponsorship like rosemary oil.
Yeah. Yeah. I know. Speaking of sponsorship, the Dev
Zach Plata: Morning Show (At Night) is a sponsored podcast, means someone has to pay the bills around here. We're sponsored by LaunchDarkly. And LaunchDarkly is the first scalable feature management platform. That means dev teams can innovate and get better software to customers faster.
How? By gradually releasing new software features and shipping code whenever they want. Fast tracking their journeys to the cloud and building stronger relationships with business. Thanks for the money LaunchDarkly
Cassidy Williams: Dalia, what are you
Dalia Abo Sheasha: working on right now? Oh, uh, that's a great question. So I'm actually a new product manager.
I come from a developer background. Uh, so a lot of the work that I'm doing right now is kind of learning what product management means. And part of that is something called customer driven development, which is all about how to build something that people actually wanna use. Yeah. Right. It's a really a concept
And part of that is also like learning how to, um, Find customers and interview them. So I'm learning how to, um, like not ask leading questions and ask, uh, a lot of questions about the product, figure out what the current problems are that you're trying to solve without a lot of biases. Um, so a lot of what I'm doing nowadays is like interviewing customers and coming up with certain, uh, customer hypotheses and features and all that.
So I'm really enjoying that aspect of the job, but I'm learning a lot at the moment because, Really new to me. It's very
Cassidy Williams: different from coding, but I bet the technical background is very useful for
Dalia Abo Sheasha: it. Oh, definitely. Because like today, for example, I was interviewing a customer and they were digging deep into.
Their project and what technology they're using and all the problems that they're having. And I was able to follow the discussion and ask follow up questions and all that. Mm-hmm. , because I knew exactly what they were talking about and you know, what technology they were using and the pain points. Um, so it was definitely a good combination of two skills, which is the development skill and the customer interaction skill.
Um, so I like the balance.
Cassidy Williams: That's cool. So what does your day to day look like? Is it mostly those customer calls?
Dalia Abo Sheasha: I wish , . Um, so this is like a kind of a phase right now because this is like, I'm doing it for the next two weeks, but usually my day to day is like, A lot of meetings, uh, where I'm talking to different people on different teams, figuring out what they're working on, what we're working on, how do we kinda align, how, um, talking to different, uh, my engineering team, figuring out what features we should be building, so and so forth.
So a lot of it is like talking to different people and then when I get a chance sitting down and figuring out, all right, what do we need to build next? Or what feature is gonna. It's gonna have the biggest impact. Uh, and I love that work, but it needs like a good chunk of time where you get not interrupted by anything.
Yeah. That
Cassidy Williams: seems like very flow state, heavy work where you have to make lots of key decisions. Exactly.
Zach Plata: And kind of in that line of thinking, what kind of tools do you use in your day to day to like help you organize all these different thoughts and, and processes and.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Ah, good question. So I've played around with different tools, and right now I'm using OneNote, but I'm also like doing some development.
So I use like different IDs, different, um, I'm actually experimenting with different tooling right now. Uh, so I, I'm using like, uh, intelligent. I am, you know, I'm supposed to be using VS code, so I'm looking at that . Um, I'm like looking at a clips. I'm looking at different modernization tooling. So like I, I am, uh, part of my job is to look at different spaces and make sure that we're building the best, you know, tool for the job.
Uh, especially that like part of. My process is helping Java developers so that that's something I'm very interested. Yeah,
Cassidy Williams: and I, I imagine Java developers, not that other developers aren't, but they're very opinionated because it's such legacy code bases in addition to new ones, but like they have systems in place and so you, you gotta deal with some heavy opinions
Dalia Abo Sheasha: there.
I definitely do. Which is funny because I worked, um, at IBM before and we used Eclipse most of the time, and then I worked at Jet Brains, so we used Intel and now I'm on Microsoft and I'm supposed to be using BS code, and I'm like, well, I learned everything that I have so far from, you know, doing it on Eclipse and intelligent.
And now I have to learn one more tool. So for me it's more about like, how do you get your job done effectively than like what tool do you use? And if you've learned the shortcuts, you've learned to do something perfectly on one tool. Like I don't mind people saying, I would love this tool and I'm gonna stick with it, even if the other one has like a bunch of new features that, that are really cool.
Or something like, Right. Yeah.
Cassidy Williams: You, you get comfortable in your setup and change is annoying cuz you have to change your mental model sometimes, especially when you do have to be in that flow state.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Exactly like it. Keeping a developer in that flow state where their writing code most of the time is like the most important job of any tool.
Mm-hmm. . Um, so whatever tool gets a developer to that point in time where they're just writing code, writing code, writing code, and not worrying about, you know, switching context at all. Like I think that's the best tool you could use. Totally fair.
So
Cassidy Williams: you mentioned that you were at IBM and, and, uh, jet Brains.
What got you into the industry in the first place?
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Whew, that's a . Good question. A journey. Um, yeah, a journey. So it all starts at Iowa State University. . What just happened to be wearing our shirts? It's clothes.
Cassidy Williams: Of course, some context. Everyone, all of us went to Iowa State, Univers.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Yeah. Yeah, it's, It's such an interesting coincidence because you wouldn't think like I was the university, you know?
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. But, and, and yet here we are, there's quite a few people who are fairly prominent in the industry who went there and, and it's a great
Dalia Abo Sheasha: school. It is a great school. And, um, actually I went there thinking I'll do something with engineering. And then I, I, and then I just kinda got a little bit, did my calculus class, even though I love calculus.
And then I was like, I wanna try something different. So I went in for a criminal justice and sociology major, and I did that for a. Uh, thinking I'm gonna go into law like. Do this and then midway through me thinking about that. I was, uh, I noticed that a lot of the answers to questions are, it depends, and I just didn't really dig that.
I was like, I want a job that is a lot more like binary. I guess that's like one plus one equal two. So, uh, one of my friends was like, God, have you, Coding, like, did you, you wanna try programming? So I took classes there and I took a Java class, a Python class, and a C class. And I really liked the aspect of.
Programming where you're telling a machine to do something and it just magically does it. I think I thought that was really powerful, especially on your little laptop or your, you know, your phone or whatever. I think it's just really cool to be able to see a change right in front of you. So I love that.
And that's when I switched to software engineering. Yes. Yes. And that's when I met Cassidy in one of our. . It's, it's
Cassidy Williams: such a small world how we, like we, we kind of, I wouldn't even say drifted apart. We just kind of went our own way and then we just started doing more events and stuff together and here we are.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Yeah, small tech world.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, it really is. Well, and it's also kind of funny that you went away from that stuff because of the, It depends questions and now the deeper you get in the industry, it's all, it depends. Questions. .
Dalia Abo Sheasha: That's a really good point because I was thinking about like what got me into the industry and now as a program manager, like it's always, it depends.
And then as you get more senior, as a developer and an architect, A lot of the decisions you're making with technology is, It depends. So I, I don't know, like I'm heading , what have I done? Um, I, I love it, but I kinda understand that the same reasoning back then is not gonna be the same reason right now, but I still, I think it's, it's such a, Area where you could do different things, uh, in the industry.
So I've tried developer advocacy, I've done development, I've done development lead. Like, I think it's just really awesome that we get different tracks and try different things just within the same industry.
Zach Plata: Yeah, and I think that was something like in college, at least for me personally, I didn't.
Understandable. I always thought it was just like, okay, you graduate with your like computer science, computer engineering, whatever degree, and then you go straight into like a coding role, like strictly a hundred percent. And now it's like, I think it's becoming more prominent, like, oh. You have this degree, like you can do really anything you wanna do program management, uh, product management, software development, developer advocacy, literally whatever.
And it's like a lot more of, of a breadth, uh, than, than I think it used to
Cassidy Williams: be when I was in college and or at least what used to be advertised. Yes. Cause I remember senior year when I was applying for full-time jobs, I was just applying for software engineering roles. Cause I thought that's what you did.
And then it wasn't until I started going to hackathons and I was just like, Who? Who are these people who are repping their companies at hackathons? Cuz they're coding but they're also talking and that sounds kind of fun. And that, that's when I learned that the role existed. And if you, it's, it's kinda like that phrase, You can't be what you can't see.
Like if I, if I didn't know that that existed, I wouldn't have known
Dalia Abo Sheasha: it existed. Great point. Exactly. That's what developer advocacy. I went to conferences and I'd be like, here's a bunch of people that call themselves developer advocates. What exactly is that? What is that? Yeah, exactly. . So I am curious, I don't know if I'm allowed to ask questions, but I'm Of course, I'm kind of curious about how you two ended up in computer.
Zach Plata: Mine, mine is actually really interesting. I, uh, I didn't know what I wanted to do in high school. I, I think I wanted to go into music, um, my senior year and then I got kind of scared of like, Oh, no, can I, can I do this? And so I actually reached out to Cassidy and, uh, she was at Iowa State at the time and told me about computer science and I kind of switched gears.
In senior year and took my first computer science class was like, Whoa, this is dope. It was frustrating at first, but I was like, Okay, no, this, this is interesting. I think there's something here. Um, and then that's what drew me, you know, Cas did her magic, got me to Iowa State .
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Uh, Yeah, my,
Cassidy Williams: my entire career is defined by peer pressure, I think , um,
But I, I first discovered coding on accident where I was walking home from school in eighth grade and I heard someone say, Check out my website. And I was like, Wait, you can have one of those. Uh, cuz I, I thought that companies could have websites. I didn't know people could have them. Um, and so I just went home that day and started looking.
How to make a website, how, how it happened. And I realized, Oh, you have to learn how to do coding. And back then there were not nearly as many resources as there are now for learning how to code. And so I was truly viewing the source of websites to understand like what the HTML tags were. And then Neo pets was getting popular and so I was able to take some of the CSS.
Guild styling to learn CSS on neo pets and that sort of thing. And, um, kind of like Zach said, I just kind of started telling everybody around me coding is cool. And, and so by the time that I was in college, I, I like said to my sister, Hey, you should try this. Talk to Zach. Talk to my cousins, talk lots of people.
Again, my career's probably very peer pressure heavy, but it's a great career. It's fun to have more people
Dalia Abo Sheasha: in it. Totally. Yeah. Again, I think you are owed the sponsorship with like recruiting. Some kind of recruiting, whether it's, I would say hunting or something or something like that. , . Uh, but it's
Cassidy Williams: so fun though.
I think, I think what's great about this industry is, again, we all have very different jobs on this call and we, we've come from different backgrounds where we've overlapped and, and not and stuff, but with tech we have the ability to, Kind of define where we want our career to go. Go. And it's lucrative and it's something that, it can be a career, not just a ladder, but a jungle gym of exploring different avenues and, and doing what you wanna do.
And, and if people like coding, I think they gotta dive in deep and try it out. Totally. Anyway, it's time for rapid fire questions.
We're going to ask you questions rapidly except mostly rapidly. Okay, so first, we all have domain names or project ideas that we're squatting on. What are some of yours?
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Um, I have my personal website that haven't updated in a very long time. It actually has my old, uh, um, role on it. So that needs to be done
But I also have a bunch of ideas around like YouTube channels. I wanna start around education cuz I love it just kind of teaching people things. Um, but I never started so I just need to get around to it. So if, if. It's that I think
Cassidy Williams: you would be a great teacher. So that seems very awesome. I would subscribe.
I'd
Dalia Abo Sheasha: smash that subscribe button. What is the
Zach Plata: most recent thing you
Dalia Abo Sheasha: over optimized? Oh, that's a great question. Um, it doesn't have to be technical. So it's a little bit technical. So I'm trying out all these tools and each one works a little bit differently, so I'm like documenting the crap out of what I had to do to get the tool working.
Mm-hmm. . So if anything, I'm just op over optimizing my future so that I don't have to go through that pain again. Um, so I don't know if that counts, but that's like my over optimization. I just don't wanna go through like the same error. Google away, all that stuff. I'm like, these exact same steps got me to where I need to go.
So, um, that's my optimization story.
Cassidy Williams: Optimizing notes is something I am very passionate about, and so I am all for that. ,
Zach Plata: that's like a whole other podcast episode
Dalia Abo Sheasha: itself. We must, we need stay on track, . No, we need, we need, we need. Yeah, does it doing something twice and going through the same pain twice, just kind of like
Cassidy Williams: inner it, It hurts.
Yeah. Like one time I looked up a question on Stack Overflow and it was my question and my answer that I found
Dalia Abo Sheasha: devastating. Ugh.
Cassidy Williams: Anyway. What's your golden rule for
Dalia Abo Sheasha: coding? Ooh. Um. It's better to write code that other people can understand than write the fewest number, uh, of lines of code. Mm. So I keep thinking about like, Hey, if I look at this in the future, will I understand why I wrote it this way?
Or am I gonna be nice to the next person that's gonna have to debug my code? So to me, like it's more important to have something understandable than like try to like trim it down and like call the least amount of methods possible. Um, of course you don't want it to be super verbose, but you still don't want it to be like not easy to understand.
Cassidy Williams: Right. And also commenting, is your friend on that too? Yeah.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Yeah. Yes.
Zach Plata: All right. Going back to those, it depends. Questions. What is your favorite? It depends. Question.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Um, probably if someone comes to me and asks me like, what do they wanna do in text? So kind of tied to the, uh, conversation we had. A lot of times I ask them, It depends on what your passions are, you know, in your current job, what do you love to do the most?
What do you least like to do the most? You know, like kind of trying to figure out what's a role that will. People's passions because each person is different. Some people really love debugging all day, every day. Some people really like talking to customers all day, every day. So kind of trying to find a, a role that bounces someone's interest, requires like getting to know the person, figuring out what they love.
Yeah,
Cassidy Williams: for sure. What is the oldest piece of tech you still own?
Dalia Abo Sheasha: That's a good question. Um, I still own a lot of my old phones, so probably one of those phones because I'm just really attached to any pictures on there. I'm like really paranoid about backup, so probably one of like my old phones from college just got like a moto razor.
You're like, it's still good. Or a Nokia. Yeah. Nice. That will never happen. I would love to find my Nokia. Yeah, if you ever do like device test, the battery just lasted forever.
Zach Plata: That'll be really nice to have like, Oh yeah, let me, lemme just see if it works on my old, whatever,
Dalia Abo Sheasha: most robust code or, or play some snake.
Oh yeah, Yeah.
Zach Plata: All right. Um, have you written a piece of cringy code, and if so, can you tell us about it?
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Uh, I think like looking at your old code is like looking at old videos that you've recorded is always gonna be cringy, so I don't think that's like a possibility to not look through code and just not cringe, especially like a years back because if you're doing it right, you're learning and growing and like learning new things.
Uh, For me, like any code that was like more than maybe a couple years ago, I'll probably be cringing. So
Cassidy Williams: code, Code that I'm proud of now I know that I won't be later. I just said, Gotta accept that I feel like in this industry.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Exactly. What's your favorite programming? Pun. Oh, can it be a joke? Yes. Um, what did Java say to.
You've got no class. Hey, nice . Do we have sound effects? Are those good? We'll,
Cassidy Williams: we'll add like a ton of, A ton of symbols and screaming,
Dalia Abo Sheasha: and it'll be great. Perfect.
Zach Plata: All right. And then the last one's around us sound. What is your most used
Dalia Abo Sheasha: emoji? Ooh, um. Probably the TODA emoji. Mm-hmm. . Because a lot of times, like I, I love seeing like, my friends win, like, and I love like saying, Hey, congrats and like, using the TODA emoji.
Um, like I think that's probably the most overused emoji for on my part. But I think it's a good thing cuz I, it's like celebrating others wins. It's like a really, uh, great thing that I love.
Cassidy Williams: That's a great emoji. I never remember the name of it. I just call it party triangle, but when you type party triangle, it does not come up ,
Dalia Abo Sheasha: and that's really long.
So I might have to look it up and it's like, Ta-da. I'm like, Oh yeah, ta.
Cassidy Williams: Okay. It is time for the random segment generator.
We are going to ask you random things, and the first segment is merge conflict. What's a merge conflict that you've dealt with in the past and how did you overcome it?
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Okay, so I'm not super proud of this . So one time . One time I was, um, on a development on my development team, and I knew that my coworker was about to submit a pr.
Uh, that's touching the same code I was, and I ended up like finishing up my PR really quickly and like pushing it up so that I don't have to deal with the MER conflict. I, I, it's not a specific example, but I am not super proud of the fact that I did that because also, I was a developer lead at that point, so I should have known better or not done that.
Um, not super proud, but I like try really hard to avoid goch conflicts as much as I can because I just hate dealing with them.
Cassidy Williams: They're so terrible. They're so, so
Dalia Abo Sheasha: bad. I hope no one is watching this from my old team. You know they are. And you're
Cassidy Williams: going to get like a DM and
Dalia Abo Sheasha: be just like, That was you. That was you.
a purpose.
Zach Plata: Oh, lovely. All right. Moving on to the next segment. It's, what are you proud of? So what's something that you shipped recently or built that you're really proud of?
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Well, I appreciate you letting me redeem myself from the last question. Yeah. Yeah. , um, It sounds super recent, but one of my proudest uh, deliveries were, um, a set of intro to Docker videos that were geared towards people that just don't understand Docker, because that was me at a certain point, and it was really difficult for me to get a hold of like, , how do you understand Docker?
Um, in a really basic way. So I ended up going off and doing a lot of research and ended up creating a set of videos that are like entered to docker videos that use graphics and simp. I spent a lot of time figuring out how do I explain this, like year five or like, how do I simplify it as much as I. So I ended up publishing that and I got some comments like, Oh, I never understood Docker until I watched this video and that.
That's great. That made my day. I was like that. Yes, that's the point. That was the point. . So that's probably one of my proudest accomplishments is like I simplified Docker . That's,
Cassidy Williams: We're gonna have to drop that in the show notes cuz I'm. Those people are not alone. I could probably use a refresher on Docker
Dalia Abo Sheasha: myself, I need for every year.
I hope it helps.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. All right, and the last one is the Mild panic trivia fun game. We have 10 seconds to ask anyone a question or compliment. Dalia, I think your storytelling ability is amazing. Every time I see something that you make and whether it's a video or a recording that you do or even your tweets, I am always super engaged and intrigued.
You are really good at telling stories and building narratives.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Oh my God, that's so sweet. I'm coming from you like you're one of the best storytellers. I know. Thank you, you so much. Of course. I mean it. Check the Love on this podcast. Podcast. Oh, I love it. I'll come every week. . Um, awesome. Is it? Who is it?
My son. You're next? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, Zach, what are you playing these days?
Zach Plata: Oh gosh. Okay. Uh, I just recently redownloaded, uh, Sim City Mobile on my phone. I do this like once every year. I get really excited about it, play like three days straight, and then I get tired of it and delete it. So this is my time.
Which
Dalia Abo Sheasha: day are we on
Zach Plata: right now? We are on, actually we are on week two. They fight at quite a punch and got me sucked in .
Cassidy Williams: That's, that's so
Dalia Abo Sheasha: d. It is sounds. We need to check. Check in with Zach in a couple weeks, see where he is in the progress. Are you hydrating, ? Yep.
Zach Plata: Um, okay, Cassidy, um, what is your favorite dessert right now?
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Oh gosh. My favorite dessert. Ooh, it changes
Cassidy Williams: regularly, but my current one that I could just eat so much of right now is key Lime. I, I am really into key lime pie and, and when I'm in the mood for it, I want nothing else. It's so good. That's
Zach Plata: totally valid. That reminds me of that one from Seattle that
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, it was really, really, if anybody is ever in Seattle, qfc, the grocery store makes an incredible key lime pie.
It has no business being that good, but it's better than any bakery you will have in that city. It is, it
Dalia Abo Sheasha: is so, Searcher. I thought you said kfc and I was like, KFC says
It's like peppered and like chicken crumbs and, Yeah. Yeah. All that. All that
Cassidy Williams: you. Anyway, it is time for CA's Sage advice.
Make sure you are open to change, especially in this tech industry. As you kind of ebb and flow going throughout your career, you might have remembered how Dalia said, how she wasn't sure if she liked the whole, It depends thing went into tech and now her entire career is, It depends, and that's kind of true for all of us, and I think because tech changes so fast, whether it's.
The latest framework that you're using or the IDE that you're using, any technology stack that you're using, because it's going to change a lot. Your code is going to be cringy to you someday. Your opinions are going to be changing someday, and if you stay very rigid in what you think and and how you approach problems and your work.
You won't grow as much if, if you are open to new ideas and new perspectives that let you explore different ideas and you're not super attached to the one thing that you make, you might be surprised which things you might end up liking to do. That being said, Dalia, Zach, thank you so much for joining today.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. Thank you so much.
Cassidy Williams: It was so fun. Dalia, where can people find you on the internet? What plugs do you.
Dalia Abo Sheasha: Uh, sure. I am at Doya, s h e a, so you can find me on footer. I'm like most active there. Um, yeah. And I post about whatever's going on in my head, uh, and a lot of doc pictures.
Uh, so just be prepared for that.
Cassidy Williams: And once again, because making podcasts is expensive. This show is brought to you by LaunchDarkly. LaunchDarkly Toggles. Peaks of 20 trillion feature flags each day, and that number continues to grow, and you should use them. You can head over to LaunchDarkly.com and learn about how.
Thank you for making this show possible. Launch Dark. I've been Cassidy Williams. You can find me at cassidoo. C A S S I D O O on most things, and I'm CTO over at Contenda.
Zach Plata: And I'm Zach, and I'm a DevRel at Rive, and you can find me on Twitter at ZachPlata
Cassidy Williams: . Thank you for tuning into the Dev Morning show (At Night). Make sure you head over to our YouTube channel where you can like and subscribe.
You can also listen to the audio version of this wherever you get your podcasts.