This episode features an interview with Munnawar Hashim, a Developer Advocate at LaunchDarkly. Munnawar joined the dev community in 2020 after a successful career as an English language teacher. He is passionate about diversity, comedy, and exploring integrations and plug-ins. In this episode, Cassidy and Zach sit down with Munnawar to discuss stepping out of your comfort zone, expressing gratitude through emojis, and Sega Mega Drives.
This episode features an interview with Munnawar Hashim, a Developer Advocate at LaunchDarkly. Munnawar joined the dev community in 2020 after a successful career as an English language teacher. He is passionate about diversity, comedy, and exploring integrations and plug-ins.
In this episode, Cassidy and Zach sit down with Munnawar to discuss stepping out of your comfort zone, expressing gratitude through emojis, and Sega Mega Drives.
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Episode Timestamps:
(01:49): What Munnawar is working on right now
(02:58): What Munnawar’s day-to-day looks like
(05:37): What tools Munnawar uses
(06:33): How Munnawar got into the industry
(10:22): Rapid Fire Questions
(21:24): Random Segment Generator
(27:31): Cassidy’s Sage Advice
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“As a dev advocate, I wake up and I'm like, ‘I don't know what I'm going to do after I finish brushing my teeth,’ but it's going to be something quite sick. So, usually it's that discovery phase of either finishing off a video, a blog post, or a slide deck. Or reaching out to teams within my company being like, ‘You guys make really cool integrations. Is there any that are coming out next week that I can make stuff about?’” – Munnawar Hashim
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Links:
The Dev Morning Show (At Night) YouTube Page
Cassidy Williams: Hello everybody and welcome back to The Dev Morning Show (At Night). My name is Cassidy Williams and I am accompanied by my wonderful co-host, as always, Zach Plata. Hey, Zach.
Zach Plata: Hey Cass. How are we feeling about the Rihanna? Oh, good thoughts? Yeah, great
Cassidy Williams: thoughts. Great question. I had so many thoughts. I thought it was excellent.
I was one of the probably millions of people who was like, Is she pregnant or is she not conforming to society's standards to have her body come back right away, which I appreciate and respect and will defend. Turns out she's pregnant, so that's cool. Um, and the fact that she could do all of those dance moves while pregnant is mind blowing to me.
Zach Plata: Amazing.
Cassidy Williams: In incredible. And the song Choices, the nostalgia.
Zach Plata: Excellent. We, we are here for it. Come back. .
Cassidy Williams: One of our guests or our guest today is someone who probably didn't watch the Super Bowl because he is not based here, but who knows. Munnawar Hashim welcome to the show. He's a developer advocate at LaunchDarkly.
Thanks
Munnawar Hashim: for having me. Um, lovely to be here. I'm based in London, so I did not catch the Super Bowl, but I saw stuff was trend. .
Cassidy Williams: That's, that's fun. Yeah. Yeah. , yeah, it was, it was trending in a fun way. I love the memes that always come out of big events. I feel like that's honestly the best part of when you have, when you have like the Twitters and the Reddits and everything going after one particular big event.
So anyway, what are you working on right now,
Munnawar Hashim: Munnawar? So for me, like at the moment, um, my job's kind of split into like three phases. The way I see it, it's like discovery phase, which is like, what project am I working on next? Um, the second is like planning the project, and then the third is like delivering.
So, um, right now there's a couple of integrations that launched dark. Has released that. I'm trying to make like video content to be like, this is what it looks like when it works, and use it cuz it makes your life easier. And
Zach Plata: now it's time to hear from our lovely sponsors. LaunchDarkly, The Dev Morning Show (At Night) is a sponsored podcast, means someone has to pay the bills around here.
We're sponsored by LaunchDarkly. And LaunchDarkly is the first scalable feature management platform. That means dev teams can innovate and get better software to customers faster. How? By gradually releasing new software features and shipping code whenever they want. Fast tracking their journeys to the cloud and building stronger relationships with business teams.
Thanks for the money LaunchDarkly.
Cassidy Williams: Wow. Thanks LaunchDarkly for the money Anyway, . So what does your day-to-day look like? .
Munnawar Hashim: Um, honestly, it's, it's this, so I'm quite new to dev advocacy and so prior to this mm-hmm , every job I've ever had, like whether it being a teacher or my first job in tech, which was a technical sport engineer, I would wake up as a technical sport engineer and know, boom, this is exactly what's gonna happen.
I open up. my tabs, look at all the tickets, see which customers I respond to. Mm-hmm. , all of our customers are great, obviously, and like politely respond to all the things and that's great. But as a dev advocate, I wake up and I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna do after I finish brushing my teeth. But , it's gonna be something quite sick.
Um, . So usually it's kind of like that discovery phase of like getting in either finishing off a video, a blog post, or a slide. , um, or reaching out to like teams within my company being like, Hey, squad water. , you guys make really cool integrations. Is there any that are coming out next week that I can make stuff about and they're like, go away oa.
Not yet. Give us two weeks. . So
Cassidy Williams: that's awesome. Well, and it is a very different, Type of approach to a role where sometimes I do kind of like having tickets where it's just like I know exactly what I'm going to do today because it's just written down and it's done. And then when it's more open-ended, you're like, I'm gonna work today.
You'll see how.
Munnawar Hashim: It's also like there's a
Cassidy Williams: blessing and a curse.
Munnawar Hashim: Yeah. It's also like, I feel like every now and then some people talk about the metrics that are involved in their job. Like salespeople are like, oh, I gotta hit X thousand dollars by the end of lunch. Or, you know, I gotta deliver this amount of things.
And for like dev advocacy, although we do have metrics, it's like, um, , yeah, just create 70%, uh, extra good vibes and 28% better, um, memes, but like, not that obviously. Um, so it's hard to
Cassidy Williams: quantify, but at the same time a little bit of that
Zach Plata: Yeah, and it definitely helps if you've got like, um, an organization that really understands the role of developer advocacy or developer relations, whatever it might be. and just, yeah. It's, it's so much easier to have that, you know, job when the people above you are like, oh yeah, I get what you do. I support all the things you're doing.
Just keep being awesome.
Munnawar Hashim: Yeah, exactly. That's so
Zach Plata: important. So, uh, you know, in your day-to-day, what kind of
Munnawar Hashim: tools do you use? For me, I, I think like we use, um, like Asana for ticketing. We use. . I use Camtasia a lot for editing videos. I'm not like the biggest fan of Camtasia because it's, I, I've used like other video editing softwares in the past, but since it's like the, the team's license, I'm slowly starting to become a Camtasia fan.
Tasia, I guess. . Hey, hey, . Um, and obviously like Zoom, zoom is like, . So everywhere. Ubiquitous. Yeah. Yeah.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. I feel like I have a love-hate relationship with Camtasia because when it works, it's perfect, and then when it doesn't, it's real. It's real pain in the butt.
Munnawar Hashim: So bad . Yeah.
Cassidy Williams: Agreed. Agreed. But what got you into the industry in the first place?
Munnawar Hashim: So I was a teacher for like seven years. Seven and a half years. Um, Oh, it is beautiful. It's a wonderful job. Um, but when Covid happened, all the best things about the job kind of went away. And all the things that like aren't great about the job either stayed or got worse. And I don't, I hope, I'm glad that you are sitting down and I hope people at home are sitting down cause I'm gonna let you in on an industry secret.
Teachers aren't very well paid. What I know. Keep it to yourself. Uh, this, this information could break things. Um, and around the time of that, uh, like shifts in how we were working, um, I met someone and she's an incredible person. Just absolute, absolute genius. And I would wake up at like, 7am. Mark, you know, a lesson plan, deal with parents, emails ready for my first lesson at 8 45 and she'd like roll out bed at like nine, go for a jog, come back with a qu on and just be like, yep, I'm starting my day.
And I'm like, okay. And she suggested to me actually, um, and I remember the way she did it was, , you know, Munnawar, you seem like a smart guy. Seem being like the operative word here. Um, have you ever thought, have you ever thought about learning to code? And from there I just taught myself to code over lockdown.
Um, yeah, that
Cassidy Williams: is awesome. That's impressive. Yeah, and I, and I feel like, first of all, I feel like tech people do that all the time. It's like a very subtle evangelism. Like have you considered. This. But the thing is, it's, it's such a good career in that the barrier to entry is so low, particularly now that if it's something that you want to do, you can kind of learn on your own and get into it.
And then if you end up not liking it, you can just stop and, and it's, it's a time commitment more than anything.
Munnawar Hashim: It's a, it's a piece of knowledge that I feel is so, , like prior to it. Like I've met software engineers like one or two and like don't really know what they do. Like Yeah. They just work with computers, I guess.
And then since then, everyone I meet like you, you just, you get absolved into the bubble, which I, I do and don't like, um, yeah. I dunno. It's, it's, it's weird but it's such a powerful piece of knowledge that's a big way for like class social mobility. It's like just knowing Yeah. That it's.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah. You, you can't be what you can't see.
Uh, I, I love that phrase and, and believe it. Yeah. And, and I think it's something that is very, very true. Where though I don't think everybody in the world should be software engineers. I do think more people need to be aware of the opportunities in the tech industry because of Yeah. That, that upward economic mobility that it can provide.
And
Munnawar Hashim: it's, yeah, like you say, it's not just code. , like there's sales, there's, and like sales in that sense is so much different from like sales in non-tech sense, um, depending on where you're located. Yeah. Life changing. My life has changed. I have hair now. It's wild. , I can, I can afford shampoo, you know, it's, oh.
Cassidy Williams: I'm so glad that tech gave you hair. Let's make sure to put that into the head somewhere.
Munnawar Hashim: Yeah.
Cassidy Williams: Alright. I'm going to move us to rapid fire questions.
We're going to ask you questions rapidly, so we all have domain names and project ideas that we're squatting on. What are some of your.
Munnawar Hashim: related to what we were talking about teach. It's either teaching for tech, uh, teaching to tech, or teachers for tech. I've got like a YouTube channel that I've just claimed, and at some point I'm gonna like you say like try and evangelize and bring people.
I think we need so many more teachers in this country. I'm based in London, uk, but like currently everywhere. What? Yeah, exactly. Everywhere. But like what people are getting paid and what they're asked to do, um, without government assistance, I think is, we're striking. Our teachers are striking right now.
Um, big shout out to the, to the teachers out there. Um, so yeah, I wanna, I wanna get more people, um, into positions that they can use their skills that they've. Oh, that. Love that. That is awesome.
Zach Plata: What is the most recent thing you over optimized?
Munnawar Hashim: I think, um, like, uh, trying to save time by, like, when I do my chores, I, I like doing a chore is really hard, so I'll just be all like, okay, I'm gonna listen to a podcast or like this podcast or like a YouTube video or whatever.
And I've realized now, that whilst it did initially encourage me to like do the chores and get loads of things done while listening, I now spend a freakishly long amount of time trying to find that perfect podcast. And then I end up, um, so that optimization has, has now failed, unfortunately.
Cassidy Williams: What is your golden rule for working or coding in general?
Munnawar Hashim: Um, under Promise overdeliver. I'm sure. I'm sure people must respond with that all the time, but it's even when I know. Oh really? Oh, it's such a good
Cassidy Williams: one. Yeah. Nice .
Munnawar Hashim: Yeah. Um, yeah, like I will be like, I will deliver one video that's like mind blowing, but really I never even say mind blowing. That's like such an over.
You know. Yeah. Um, I will
Cassidy Williams: deliver, I will deliver one subpar video. .
Munnawar Hashim: Yes. And then it hits like above average, just above mediocrity. And it's like, Monroe, you blew this. Our expectations .
Cassidy Williams: I do think that is a good one because it not just for like the people around you, but kind of. For yourself too. Sometimes if you, if you underpromise something for yourself, you don't disappoint yourself in what you're actually able to execute in some way, and then you can kind of be a bit happier with the things
Munnawar Hashim: that you make.
Relationships is a big one for that as well, I feel. Hmm. I feel like a lot of our current day, like even if you look at the construction of a dating profile app, it's like I am the bees knees, and I. ,
Zach Plata: are you? Am I ? I'm fine.
what is your favorite? It depends. Question.
Munnawar Hashim: Every now and then someone will answer the question like, are you an introvert with, it depends on who I'm around. And then I'm like, so that's a yes, because if you are around your friends, you feel like yes. And if you're around strangers, you're like, no. . So the answer is yes.
Right. Does that make sense?
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, yeah. No, it does. I feel like it also depends on a phase of life too, or, or like, I am definitely an introverted person, but there have been times in my life where I've been less so just because of the phase that I'm in and, and mm-hmm. what is important to me at the time too.
Zach Plata: And then there's also that. I wanna say ambivert category, I think. Yeah. Where it's kind of like you're in between you teeter and it almost sounds like what you were talking about more like the, uh, like depending on your situation and like which group of friends you're around. Uh, you could have this totally different, um, side to you, but
Munnawar Hashim: Yeah.
Also, like some people are wildly extroverted at work. For example, teaching's a really good one actually. You get into the classroom. Yeah. And there's like people who are like, And then like as soon as the class ends, it's like, bye kids. Bye kids. Bye kids. . You know? Yeah. . Yeah.
Cassidy Williams: That's, I feel like that's a lot of me.
I, fun fact, I used to teach, uh, I used to teach coding actually before the pandemic and you know, things and. Yeah. It was the kind of thing where after a workshop I was like, man, that was awesome. That was, that was great. And then as soon as I got back I'm like, wow, I'm not going to talk to people for a week and just
Munnawar Hashim: recharge.
Give me cereal. Sure. I shall be in my cave. Yeah. . Perfect.
Cassidy Williams: What is the oldest piece of tech you still. .
Munnawar Hashim: Um, it's probably like my Sega mega drive. Um, yeah, so I got that really late because we couldn't afford like an N 64 PlayStation at the time. And so like my mom went to Pakistan. She went like every six years or so.
It's like either when people got married or like someone died, right? And so she came back with like a Sega mega drive with like a ladin, and I was like, . This is sick . That's
Zach Plata: amazing. I love that. All right. Have you written a piece of cringey code? And if so, what was the last thing that you wrote that you remember?
Munnawar Hashim: I think probably cringe In what way? Like cringe. Cringe. Cuz it's awful. Or because it's like the, the product of it is cringe inducing. Oh,
Cassidy Williams: a little bit of
Munnawar Hashim: both. Yeah. .
Zach Plata: However it makes, I've makes you feel.
Munnawar Hashim: Ooh, yes. Okay. Uh, I've got a really good one. It's definitely both. So, um, my partner, who is oh, just so incredible, wonderful, wonderful woman.
Um, I, uh, she's just a great software engineer as well, and so like I. Kind of made a piece of code that was like when I was learning, right. That was like kind of a choose your own adventure. But it was like basically me trying to chirps her chirps means like to flirt in like London slang, right? Um, but I realized at some point that as soon as I would like give it to her, she would just be like, Yeah, you should probably have used classes for this
Oh, like the recursion And like all of this, like Shakespeare, like dialogue I would've generated or like the, the poetry, terrible stuff that I like the puns essentially. Dad jokes, she would've ignored that and just be like, Hmm, recursion would've been nice here, you know? And I was like, so I never gave it to her.
It lives on a private repo somewhere and I cringe thinking it exists.
Cassidy Williams: That's really cute though.
But yeah, that's, that sounds, that sounds pretty spot on for a software engineer receiving something like that. All unfortunately,
Munnawar Hashim: she, she, she would've said, you know what, can we do this as a poll request? Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show you some edits. And I'm like, no. Okay,
Cassidy Williams: fine. This is a learning experience.
Yeah.
Munnawar Hashim: And she's an amazing teacher. For like, anyone that's like, not. . Um, we tried it like a few times and, and, and I'm like, oh, like I've heard you talk to people at work, you mentor, and you, you do such a lovely thing in the background there, but with me it's like . , we're gonna have to deny you food privileges for the next three.
And I'm like, okay, I'm sorry. Well, not that, not that, not that, not that like, not the food privileges. .
Cassidy Williams: I feel like that's a very common thing though, when partners are trying to teach each other something. It doesn't have to be code, but coming from personal experience, I cannot, I cannot learn from my husband.
I just, it's, I, I want. . Trust me, I do. But I, I don't know if it's his teaching or just me not. I, there's, there's some kind of block there. I know I'm too, well, I just, mm.
Munnawar Hashim: It's not how I, I've learned this is now my, like, lesson with life, like with my brothers, with anyone that I care about. I'm like, you know, yeah.
Here's a YouTube video.
Cassidy Williams: Watch that. The more I love you, the more frustrating this will be.
Truly. Do you have a favorite programming pun?
Munnawar Hashim: Um, I think the first conference I went to, um, which was like a year and a half ago, like after pandemic, um, the, the pub at the bottom was like, had a huge, like, it was just called the space bar. Um, . Nice. Yeah. And at the same time I was like, I was like, we, I'm in an industry of like, dad joke makers, this is cool.
Like I did it .
Cassidy Williams: It's, it's, it's wonderful to be in such an industry where that's openly not accepted necessarily, but just, it's just known that that's something you will encounter. Yeah.
Zach Plata: Normalized.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah.
Munnawar Hashim: Normalized. Another reason why teachers should go into, They're constantly doing that kind of stuff,
Zach Plata: And lastly, what is your most used emoji
Munnawar Hashim: in work? It's like the t y emoji, like on slack. Um, and that's mainly because my company is full of amazing people. Like they're so good and I will just drop into channels and. . Hey folks, I'm an new and they're just like, we know. And I'm like, thank you so much . Like, you know, , um, and very rarely the mp no problem emoji when I've like helped someone else.
Cassidy Williams: Um mm-hmm. That's a fun one. Yeah. And then what about outside of work on your phone or whatever,
Munnawar Hashim: Um, on my Sega Mega Drive, uh, I use the , the, the crying, uh, laughing emoji. A classic. Yeah. Even at things that aren't very funny. Oh,
Cassidy Williams: sh. That's the unspoken thing. Yeah, . All right. It is time for our random segment generator.
Ah.
All right. We are going to pull up a bunch of random segments and see what the big machine tells us to ask. And the first one is, Dev opposites. What do you do outside of your day job? What are your hobbies? Um,
Munnawar Hashim: so bouldering, uh, is something that I've picked up since going, uh, leaving teaching. Um,
Cassidy Williams: that's like the most tech thing that it's,
Munnawar Hashim: it's bad.
I'm, I'm so, I'm so basic. It's like awful. Um, and it's, but it's something I wanted to try before where like, teaching is a, an oddly middle class, uh, like occupation with like a borderline working class salary. And so that means that you love going to museums, but you can't afford the free entry. And like now it's very much like I can go bouldering if I want.
And, and, and other people are really into it. Sports, I'm huge, huge, huge, huge into sports. Um, at some point this year, I'm gonna do open mic standup as like a bucket list thing. Oh, cool.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, that's a, that is awesome. .
Zach Plata: Um, if you weren't in this industry, I know you said you were a teacher before, but what would you be doing?
Would you still be teaching or something else?
Munnawar Hashim: I think, um, yeah, potentially teaching slash. motivational speaker. You know, sometimes it's great just to get people who are like, I don't know if I can, and I'm. , I think maybe you can. And then they do. They can. . .
Cassidy Williams: That's all motivational speaking
Zach Plata: really is. All right.
Our next segment we've got is 4 0 4 s and heartbreak. So what is something that existed on the internet that unfortunately does not anymore that you really miss?
Munnawar Hashim: Ooh, that's a really good question. Um, I just think a lot of the. Video game websites I used to visit when I was a kid. Mm-hmm. being all like, oh, what are the different, I wanna get Nintendo news.
I go here, um, like Nash, Europe, uh, European one, or like PlayStation News is here, but now it's just like all in one subreddit where I don't even click the article anymore. , so those websites will probably die in time as well, which is really sad actually.
Cassidy Williams: Yeah, the, that's, that's a very real one. And I feel like that's, that's something too where YouTube probably replaced a lot of that and it's, it's just, it's, there's very few central hubs for that kind of information anymore.
It's a lot of people trying to be the hub for everything
Munnawar Hashim: and reading a, like a seven minute article on a video game at this. , it's so much harder than listening to like a four minute video. Um, and I don't like that by myself. Yeah. Actually
Cassidy Williams: we've, we've changed. It's, it's, it's like an instant gratification thing that like the TikTok and youths have thrust upon us.
But, but yeah, it is, it is something interesting where even, even with developer advocacy and, and working and stuff, when you're starting to make content, There's some people who only wanna watch videos and some people who only wanna read and, and that kind of stuff. You have to make sure that whatever you're making hits all of those different factors.
It's, it's an interesting dynamic we're in
Munnawar Hashim: right now. Just make a video with like scrolling text, like the introduction to Star Wars, to like hit both the video and the readers in one.
Cassidy Williams: Exactly. Okay. And now we have our last segment, which is the mild panic trivia fun game. We have 10 seconds to ask anyone a question or compliment them.
So I will do Zach. Zach will do Moar. Moar will do me. Okay. Uh, gosh. Zach, what is your favorite Boba flavor?
Zach Plata: Oh gosh. Um, I'm gonna be real basic and just go with the regular brown sugar because
Cassidy Williams: you know, it's a good classic.
Zach Plata: Very sweet. It's classic. You can have it hot or cold. All right, oi. Um, what are you listening to right now?
Music-wise artists or song?
Munnawar Hashim: Interesting. I, like I mentioned earlier, like I find it very. Oh yes. So I used to live in Thailand for a couple. I taught a couple years in Thailand. Um, cool. Hence the tan. And when I was out there, . I, I, I learnt the language. I don't speak it super, super well anymore cause I've not had much experience.
But I listened. I've been listening to an old Thai playlist I made and it really brings me back, like the power of the music to bring me back to that time is wild. That's awesome. Amazing. . Um, and Cassidy, your Twitter handle is cassou. Um, yeah. Is there anything beyond, uh, the, the d and the do? Uh, was it like Twitter said, no, we've run out of Cassidy or was there something , ,
Cassidy Williams: uh, it came from my mom actually.
She used to say like, how'd you do Cassou? And it was just, oh, something. Yeah. It was just something that, that she said, and. I first grabbed that nickname in college actually, because we had, we were able to pick like our email handles in college, and I was just like, I don't, I don't know what to do. Cassidy Dot Williams or something, and she's like, just do cassou.
And thus my username was formed for everything from then on .
Munnawar Hashim: That's so cute. I, I love that story. My brother's name is Mohammed and my mom calls used to call him Mud. Mud. And I think mud, mud is so cute. Way cuter than any nickname anyone else was. That's a.
Zach Plata: Love that.
Cassidy Williams: That's That's so cute. I, I love little family nicknames like that. It's fun. It's fun to hear them, especially because it definitely comes from endearment and everything and you usually don't hear them outside of the family like that. Alright everybody, it is that time of the show for Cassidy's Sage Advice,
and I'm Cassidy and I'm here with Sage advice and my advice to you is, To kind of step out of your comfort zone and try learning something new if it interests you or if your situation isn't what you want to be around, because there's so many times where, sure, like we could talk about going into tech and how amazing it is, but let's just say you're not a huge fan of front end development or backend development or security or, or whatever area you might be in or the thing that you're studying, just.
Trying other things because you never know what you might discover. So many people that I know who are career changers, they might switch in or out of tech or they might just go to a completely different realm in the tech industry and it fits them so much better because it's something that they like.
And by just being willing to try it, you never know what you might find. That being said, thank you so much for being on the show with us today.
Munnawar Hashim: Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Cassidy Williams: Where can people find you on the internet? Is there anything you wanna plug?
Munnawar Hashim: Yes, I guess I'll, I'll plug my Twitter, which is munnawar_h um.
m u double n a w a r underscore h four.
Cassidy Williams: Oh. Put it in the show notes and everything. Oh, yeah.
Munnawar Hashim: Great. Um, . Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to be more active on Twitter ever since I became a developer advocate, because as a teacher you try and erase your social profile. because your kids will find you, and as a developer advocate, you need to build it up.
So it's, it's going against my , my natural instinct.
Cassidy Williams: Inclinations. . Yeah, true. And once again, because making podcasts is expensive. This show is brought to you by LaunchDarkly LaunchDarkly Toggles peaks of 20 trillion feature flags each day, and that number continues to grow. And you should use. You can head over to launchdarkly.com and learn about how.
Thank you for making this show possible. LaunchDarkly, I've been Cassidy Williams. You can find me at cassidoo, c a s s i d o o on most things. And I'm CTO over at Contenda. And
Zach Plata: I'm Zach. And I'm a DevRel at Rive. And you can find me on Twitter at zachplata. Thank
Cassidy Williams: you for tuning into The Dev Morning Show (At Night).
Make sure you head over to our YouTube channel where you can like and subscribe. You can also listen to the audio version of this wherever you get your podcasts.